- 1. - Coffee?
- Yeah, thank you.
- 2. How have you liked your stay?
- 3. What I've seen, I've liked.
- 4. Please to explain
why I should agree to interview
- 5. with pro-Zionist American media?
- 6. Because I think Hezbollah
- 7. is trying to broaden
into a political party right now,
- 8. so you care about
what you're thought of in America,
- 9. and in America at this moment in time,
Hezbollah does not have a face.
- 10. That's why.
- 11. Perhaps you prove
- 12. and I see the questions first.
- 13. Then I decide if I grant the interview.
- 14. No, we don't do that.
- 15. You've seen 60 Minutes
and Mike Wallace,
- 16. so you know our reputation
for integrity and objectivity.
- 17. You also know we are
the highest-rated, most-respected
- 18. TV magazine news show in America.
- 19. So, Mr. Wallace...
Should he get on a plane or not?
- 20. Tell him I'll see him day after tomorrow.
- 21. That's good. That works.
- 22. I want to ask you something.
I know it sounds odd, but...
- 23. Hello? Sheikh?
- 24. Hello? Sheikh?
- 25. - Norman?
- What? What?
- 26. Take your blindfold off.
- 27. Welcome to the world.
- 28. Fluctuating all over the place.
- 29. Anywhere we shoot here, it's gonna be
portable gennies and we'll run cable.
- 30. - Hello?
- Mike, it's me. We're on.
- 31. - Hi, honey.
- Hi, Daddy.
- 32. What's new?
- 33. Miss Loughrey gave me a star today.
- 34. Yeah? What for?
- 35. - For reading.
- That's great.
- 36. A little early for cartoons, isn't it?
- 37. Okay.
- 38. Deborah? Debbie?
- 39. Oh, I didn't know you were home.
It's early, isn't it?
- 40. Gotta take Debbie to ballet.
- 41. Mommy!
- 42. Sweetheart, come on. Come on.
- 43. She was playing
with my Pooh doll again.
- 44. Slow down, slow down, slow down.
Breathe deep, breathe deep.
- 45. Slowdown, honey. Slowdown.
- 46. Slow down.
- 47. Here we go.
- 48. - Deep breaths. Deep breaths.
- She was playing with the Pooh doll.
- 49. Pooh's dusty, sweetheart.
- 50. He's dusty
and you breathed him in, okay?
- 51. So, what's happening to you...
Look at me.
- 52. What's happening to you now
is cells called "mass cells"
- 53. told your lungs,
"Don't breathe any more of that dust in."
- 54. And the airways in your lungs
are like branches,
- 55. and when the branches close up,
you get an asthmatic attack,
- 56. and we give you medicine
and you get better. Uh-huh? Okay?
- 57. Better already, aren't you?
- 58. Okay, baby?
- 59. Can I go to dance tomorrow? I'm better.
- 60. If you are, then I'll take Barbara
to soccer and take you to dance after.
- 61. I can take her.
- 62. Don't you have to be at the office?
- 63. - Is there any more rice?
- Yes, it's on the stove.
- 64. - Do you want more rice?
- Maybe later.
- 65. - How about you?
- I'll take some.
- 66. Instant rice?
- 67. Can I go over
to Jeanine's house?
- 68. I'm sorry, darling.
Have you seen my coffee mug?
- 69. Try the car.
- 70. What are those boxes?
- 71. I'm going to the store.
You need anything?
- 72. - What do you need at the store?
- Soy sauce.
- 73. Right now?
- 74. That's my stuff from the office.
- 75. Why did you take your stuff
from the office?
- 76. - I didn't want to leave it there.
- I don't understand.
- 77. I got fired this morning.
- 78. Where else am I gonna take it?
- 79. Why?
- 80. - Who said?
- Thomas Sandefur.
- 81. What are we supposed to do?
- 82. What about our medical coverage?
What about our health?
- 83. What about our car payments?
The payments on this house?
- 84. The severance agreement
includes cash payoffs over time
- 85. and continuing medical coverage.
- 86. Sure you don't need anything?
- 87. No, thank you.
- 88. Jeffrey?
- 89. I am very pleased to receive you
as my guest, Mr. Wallace.
- 90. Well, thank you for having us.
- 91. Think I got a problem with the gennie.
I gotta go outside.
- 92. Give me a hand with this, will you?
- 93. Norman!
- 94. - He says, you must not sit so close.
- 95. I can't conduct an interview
from back there.
- 96. You must move back your chair.
- 97. Well, you tell him that
when I conduct an interview,
- 98. I sit anywhere I damn please.
- 99. There is no interview.
- 100. You!
- 101. I'm talking to you!
- 102. What the hell do you think I am,
a 78-year-old assassin?
- 103. You think I'm gonna karate him to death
with this notepad?
- 104. - Are you interpreting what I'm saying?
- 105. - We're there.
- 106. Well, ask him if Arabic is
his second language.
- 107. Don't interpret that. Hold it.
- 108. Hold it! Hold it! Slow! Slow!
- 109. Sheikh, do you mind?
- 110. If you would just turn your chair
a little bit to face Mr. Wallace.
- 111. - Is that okay?
- 112. Are you ready
or do you wanna keep fucking around
- 113. and warm up some more?
- 114. - No, I've got my heart started.
- 115. All right, Todd.
- 116. Give me
the three-button on Mike, please.
- 117. Good. Good.
- 118. Okay, we are rolling.
- 119. Okay, Mike.
- 120. Sheikh Fadlallah,
thank you so much for seeing us.
- 121. Are you a terrorist?
- 122. Mr. Wallace, I am a servant of God.
- 123. A servant of God? Really?
- 124. Americans believe that you,
as an Islamic fundamentalist,
- 125. that you are a leader who contributed
to the bombing of the US Embassy.
- 126. Everybody thinks
Canadian Mounties ride horses
- 127. and rescue ladies from rapids.
- 128. Mike, they backed locals in Oka
in a fight with Mohawks
- 129. over building a golf course
on their burial site,
- 130. they beat up protesters at Kanehsatake.
- 131. - Where'd you hear that?
- 132. Oh, someone took a poll?
"Are all things Canadian boring?"
- 133. - It's Stuart. He's in Mexico City.
- Oh. Let me call you back.
- 134. Yeah, Stuart?
- 135. - What New York bank?
- Hey, Dad.
- 136. Will he go on camera
and talk about the Mexico City branch?
- 137. - Hey, Jake.
- Whose money are they laundering?
- 138. - No classes this morning?
- I don't have to be there till 10:30.
- 139. - Hey, Mom. Hello.
- Hi, sweetheart.
- 140. - Hello? Yeah.
- Do independent sources corroborate?
- 141. - Dad, you got a box out here.
- Let me see this a second.
- 142. 'Cause I gotta know
where you're going at all times.
- 143. I can't.
I've gotta fly to Boston tomorrow.
- 144. 2:00 p.m. Great. Bye-bye
- 145. "Ignition propensity."
You understand any of this?
- 146. No.
- 147. This looks like a table of temperatures.
- 148. - Who's this from?
- It's anonymous.
- 149. References to "P.M."
- 150. It's gotta be Phillip Morris, huh?
- 151. Hmm. I have to take a shower.
- 152. Yeah?
- 153. - Hi, this is Doug Oliver.
- Oh, hi, Doug. It's Lowell.
- 154. I'm doing this story on fire safety,
- 155. and people burning up
from falling asleep smoking.
- 156. I receive a shitload of scientific papers
from inside Phillip Morris.
- 157. Anonymous. You or anybody in FDA
- 158. know someone who can translate
this stuff into English forme?
- 159. Uh, yeah.
- 160. Hello?
- 161. Mr. Wigand, please?
- 162. Someone's calling for Daddy, Mom.
- 163. Oh. Thank you, Bob.
- 164. - Who's calling?
- My name is Lowell Bergman.
- 165. - Did you say "Berman?"
- No, Bergman. B-E-R-G-M-A-N.
- 166. - I'm a producer for 60 Minutes.
- 60 Minutes?
- 167. Yeah.
- 168. - 60 Minutes, the television show?
- 169. He doesn't want to talk to you.
- 170. How does he know
he doesn't want to talk to me?
- 171. He doesn't know
what I'm calling him about.
- 172. He doesn't care to know.
- 173. This is the Wigands'.
- 174. If you'd like to leave a message
or send a fax, start now.
- 175. This is Lowell Bergman
with 60 Minutes,
- 176. and I'm doing a story
on fire safety and cigarettes.
- 177. have scientific documents
from a tobacco company
- 178. and I could use your help
as a consultant
- 179. explaining these documents to me.
- 180. Now, my number is
area code 510-555-0199.
- 181. ' jbe there at this number
in 10 minutes.
- 182. If you're curious to meet me,
I'm gonna be in the lobby
- 183. of the Seelbach Hotel in Louisville
- 184. reading The New York Times
tomorrow at 5:00.
- 185. Have you always
lived in Louisville?
- 186. Mr. Bergman,
what did you want me to consult about?
- 187. Who's that?
- 188. That's room service.
- 189. They usually knock first.
- 190. Come on in. Over here, please.
- 191. Thank you.
- 192. How do you like your coffee? Black?
- 193. Black. Black.
- 194. I really don't have that much time.
- 195. Is there anything you want to know
about me, Mr. Wigand?
- 196. Like what? Your sign?
- 197. - I know what I have to know.
- Just so I know you know,
- 198. when I talk to people in confidence,
it stays that way.
- 199. How did a radical journalist from
Ramparts Magazine end up at CBS?
- 200. I still do the tough stories.
60 Minutes reaches a lot of people.
- 201. Let me see the documents.
- 202. This is a fire-safety product study
for Phillip Morris.
- 203. Burn rates, ignition propensity,
things of this nature.
- 204. I could very easily explain this
to you in layman's terms
- 205. because it's from another company,
but that's as far as I go.
- 206. As far as you go where?
- 207. This issue is a drop in the bucket.
- 208. I can talk to you about what's in here,
- 209. I can't talk to you about anything else.
- 210. I signed a confidentiality agreement.
I honor agreements.
- 211. Doesn't CBS have confidentiality
agreements, Mr. Bergman?
- 212. Between journalists and management,
yes, I believe they do.
- 213. But I don't take that seriously.
Where do you work?
- 214. - "Did work."
- Did work?
- 215. How much would I get paid?
- 216. That you have to discuss
with CBS Business Affairs.
- 217. But for something like this, I would say
anywhere between $10, $12,000.
- 218. Should I just take the documents now?
- 219. If you want to do it.
- 220. I worked as a head of Research and
Development for Brown & Williamson.
- 221. Tobacco company.
- 222. I was a corporate vice-president.
- 223. Mr. Bergman.
- 224. President Assad
- 225. said that difficult obstacles remain,
- 226. but that his country, quote,
- 227. "looks forward to a great long peace
- 228. That's a Peabody, Mike.
- 229. When you're dead and buried,
- 230. Hezbollah is the one
we're gonna remember you for.
- 231. - Are you eating with us?
- 232. Bring a tie
so they let us in the front door.
- 233. Come on.
- 234. - Debbie!
- Hey, Lowell.
- 235. Oh, Bill, Main Justice is investigating
a major New York bank
- 236. laundering narco dollars
out of their Mexico City branch.
- 237. You want it for the evening news?
- 238. What about you?
You got a crew already?
- 239. - I'm gonna do a follow-up.
- 240. Catch you later.
- 241. - Debbie.
- How are you?
- 242. I want you to get Legal on
a corporate confidentiality agreement.
- 243. Okay.
- 244. Boundaries of their constraint,
Kentucky state law about...
- 245. - I want you to drop everything.
- 246. I don't have any change.
You got some change?
- 247. Here.
- 248. Tony.
- 249. Mr. Wigand, you can go up now.
- 250. Sorry. I'm accepting an award from
the Retinitis Pigmentosa Foundation.
- 251. It's gonna kill the rest of my day.
- 252. So, have you had a chance to play golf?
- 253. Jeff's a premier golfer.
What are you, a two handicap?
- 254. Seven.
- 255. And he gets out there
and he has five strokes on us.
- 256. He has more concentration
than anybody I've ever met.
- 257. It's spooky how he can concentrate.
- 258. I'd rather play than talk about it.
- 259. What did you want to see me about?
- 260. I don't like being back here.
- 261. Jeffrey says exactly what's on his mind.
- 262. Most people consider
what they're saying, social skills.
- 263. Jeffrey just charges right ahead.
- 264. Now, I know you understood the nature
of the confidentiality portion
- 265. of your severance agreement
with Brown & Williamson.
- 266. - Chapter and verse.
- Yeah, I know you do.
- 267. You know, I came up through sales.
- 268. One of the reasons
I was a great salesman
- 269. was I never made a promise
I couldn't keep.
- 270. I knew that if I ever broke my promise,
I'd suffer the consequence.
- 271. Is that a threat?
- 272. We worked together for,
what was it, three years?
- 273. The work we did here is confidential,
not for public scrutiny
- 274. any more than are one's family matters.
- 275. You're threatening my family now, too?
- 276. Now, don't be paranoid, Jeff.
- 277. About the direction of research here,
we may have had our differences, but...
- 278. Research.
- 279. You declare as a badge of honor you
don't even know what makes water boil.
- 280. Well, that's why we hire scientists.
- 281. Okay.
- 282. I don't believe that
you can maintain corporate integrity
- 283. without confidentiality agreements.
- 284. I was paid well for my work,
- 285. the health and welfare benefits
- 286. the severance package is fair.
- 287. I have no intention of violating
my confidentiality agreement
- 288. and disclosing that
which I said I wouldn't.
- 289. I appreciate all that, Jeff,
- 290. but upon reflection, we've decided
to expand our zone of comfort with you.
- 291. So we've drafted a supplement
to your agreement.
- 292. It broadly defines and expands
in more detail what is confidential.
- 293. Nobody will be able to say,
- 294. "Well, hell's bells, Margaret,
I didn't know that was a secret."
- 295. We're very serious
about protecting our interests.
- 296. We'd like you to sign it.
- 297. And if I don't?
- 298. If we arrive at the conclusion
that you're acting in bad faith,
- 299. we would terminate right now
payoffs under your severance package,
- 300. you and your family's medical benefits
- 301. and initiate litigation against you,
- 302. - Dr. Wigand.
- Dr. Wigand.
- 303. If you've examined the document,
- 304. you'll see it's in your own best interest
and you'll sign it.
- 305. What you're saying is it isn't enough
that you fired me for no good reason.
- 306. Now you question my integrity?
- 307. On top of the humiliation of being fired,
- 308. you threaten me,
you threaten my family?
- 309. It never crossed my mind
not to honor my agreement.
- 310. I will tell you, Mr. Sandefur, and
Brown & Williamson, too... "Fuck me"?
- 311. Well, fuck you!
- 312. I'm not sure he got the message.
- 313. Oh, I think he did.
- 314. - Yeah.
- You fucked me!
- 315. Who's this?
- 316. Protect your sources? You screwed me!
You sold me out!
- 317. What are you talking about?
Where are you?
- 318. Fuck you, too!
- 319. Stay away from me.
- 320. You stay away from me!
- 321. Jeffrey, you forgot the lunches!
- 322. - Mrs. Wigand?
- Jump in quick. Come on.
- 323. How do you do? I'm Lowell Bergman.
We spoke on the phone.
- 324. - Come here. I want to talk to you.
- Good. I want to talk to you.
- 325. This is my house.
In front of my wife, my kids...
- 326. I did not burn you.
I did not give you up to anyone.
- 327. What business do we have?
- 328. I'm here to straighten something out
- 329. Right here, right now.
- 330. You haven't mentioned my name?
- 331. You haven't talked to anybody
- 332. What am I gonna mention your name for...
Why are Brown & Williamson...
- 333. How the hell do I know about
Brown & Williamson?
- 334. It happened just after I talked to you!
I do not like coincidences!
- 335. Well, I don't like paranoid accusations.
I'm a journalist.
- 336. Think! Use your head!
How do I operate as a journalist?
- 337. By screwing the people
who could provide me with information
- 338. before they provided me with it?
- 339. You came all the way down here
to tell me that?
- 340. No, I did not.
- 341. Big Tobacco is a big story
and you got something important to say.
- 342. I can tell.
- 343. But yes, I did.
- 344. I came all the way down here to tell you,
story, no story, fuck your story,
- 345. I don't burn people.
- 346. Ride with me
while I take the girls to school.
- 347. My little girl
has acute asthma.
- 348. Deborah, my oldest daughter.
- 349. And I'm unemployed, so
I have to protect my medical coverage.
- 350. So I left them a message this morning.
- 351. Their expanded
- 352. I will sign it.
- 353. - They're afraid of you, aren't they?
- They should be.
- 354. Talk to me outside the zone
of your agreement.
- 355. Like what?
- 356. Like, where'd you work
before Brown & Williamson?
- 357. Johnson & Johnson,
Union Carbide in Japan...
- 358. I was the general manager and director
of new products. I speak Japanese.
- 359. I was a director
of corporate development at Pfizer.
- 360. All health-related.
- 361. What else outside the zone?
- 362. I don't know. Do you think the Knicks
are gonna make it to the semifinals?
- 363. - Just give me an example.
- 364. For example, James Burke.
- 365. - CEO of Johnson & Johnson.
- 366. When he found out that some lunatic
had put poison in Tylenol bottles.
- 367. He didn't argue with the FDA,
- 368. he didn't even wait for the FDA
to tell him,
- 369. he just pulled Tylenol off
every shelf of every store
- 370. right across America, instantly.
- 371. And then he developed a safety cap.
- 372. Because as a CEO, sure, he's gotta be
a great businessman, right?
- 373. But he's also a man of science.
- 374. He's not gonna allow his company
to put on the shelf
- 375. a product that might hurt people.
- 376. Not like the Seven Dwarfs.
- 377. - Seven Dwarfs?
- Seven CEOs of Big Tobacco.
- 378. They got in front of Congress that time.
It was on television...
- 379. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- 380. Swore under oath that they know
nothing about addiction...
- 381. - It was on C-SPAN.
- 382. Okay, so, here you are.
You go to work for tobacco.
- 383. You come from corporate cultures
- 384. really creative thinking,
these are core values.
- 385. You go to tobacco.
Tobacco is a sales culture,
- 386. market and sell enormous volume,
go to a lot of golf tournaments.
- 387. The hell with everything else.
What are you doing?
- 388. Why are you working for tobacco
in the first place?
- 389. I can't talk about it.
- 390. The work I was supposed to do
- 391. might have had some positive effect,
I don't know.
- 392. Could have been beneficial.
- 393. Mostly, I got paid a lot.
I took the money.
- 394. My wife was happy,
- 395. my kids had good medical,
good schools, got a great house.
- 396. I mean,
what the hell is wrong with that?
- 397. Nothing's wrong with that. That's it.
You're making money.
- 398. You're providing for your family.
What could be wrong with that?
- 399. I always thought of myself as a man
of science, that's what's wrong with it.
- 400. Then you're in a state of conflict, Jeff.
- 401. Because, look, here's how it lays out.
- 402. If you've got vital insider stuff,
- 403. the American people, for their welfare,
really do need to know,
- 404. and you feel impelled to disclose it
and violate your agreement in doing so,
- 405. that's one thing.
- 406. On the other hand,
if you want to honor this agreement,
- 407. then that's simple.
- 408. You do so.
You say nothing, you do nothing.
- 409. There's only one guy
who can figure that out for you,
- 410. and that's you all by yourself.
- 411. I gotta go pick up the girls.
They only had half a day.
- 412. I've heard virtually all the...
We touched on it.
- 413. Yes or no, do you believe
nicotine is not addictive?
- 414. Congressman,
cigarettes and nicotine
- 415. clearly do not meet
the classic definitions of addiction.
- 416. There is no intoxication.
- 417. We'll take that as "no."
- 418. Again, time is short.
- 419. think each of you believe
nicotine is not addictive
- 420. and just would like to have this
for the record.
- 421. believe that nicotine is not addictive.
- 422. , too, believe that nicotine...
- 423. He referred to this...
- 424. - The Seven Dwarfs.
- What Seven Dwarfs?
- 425. The seven CEO of Big Tobacco.
Referred to this,
- 426. said they should be afraid of him.
I assume afraid of what he could reveal.
- 427. Now you tell me.
- 428. What does this guy have to say
that threatens these people?
- 429. Well, it isn't cigarettes are bad for you.
- 430. - Hardly new news.
- No shit.
- 431. What's this?
- 432. What that is
is tobacco's standard defense.
- 433. It's the "we don't know" litany.
- 434. "Addiction? We believe not. Disease?
We don't know.
- 435. "We take a bunch of leaves,
we roll them together, you smoke 'em.
- 436. "After that, you're on your own.
We don't know."
- 437. So, that tells me nothing.
- 438. - Besides, you'll never get what he's got.
- Why not?
- 439. Because of this guy's
- 440. he's never gonna be able to talk to you.
- 441. That's not good enough.
This guy is the top scientist
- 442. in the number-three tobacco company
- 443. He's a corporate officer.
- 444. You never get whistle-blowers
from Fortune 500 companies.
- 445. This guy is the ultimate insider.
- 446. He's got something to say,
he wants to say it.
- 447. - I want it on 60 Minutes.
- Doesn't matter what he wants.
- 448. Am I missing
- 449. What do you mean, Mike?
- 450. He's got
a corporate secrecy agreement.
- 451. Give me a break.
- 452. This is a public health issue, like
an unsafe air frame on a passenger jet
- 453. or some company dumping cyanide
into the East River.
- 454. Issues like that.
He can talk, we can air it.
- 455. They've got no right to hide behind
a corporate agreement. Pass the milk.
- 456. They don't need the right.
They got the money.
- 457. The unlimited checkbook.
- 458. That's how Big Tobacco wins
every time on everything.
- 459. They spend you to death.
- 460. $600 million a year in outside legal.
- 461. Chadbourne & Parke,
Ken Starr's firm, Kirkland and Ellis.
- 462. Listen, GM and Ford, they get nailed
after 11 or 12 pickups blow up, right?
- 463. - These clowns have never ever...
- Not even once.
- 464. Not even with hundreds of thousands
dying each year
- 465. from an illness related
to their product,
- 466. have ever lost a
personal injury lawsuit.
- 467. On this case, they'll issue gag orders,
sue for breach, anticipatory breach,
- 468. enjoin him, you, us, his pet dog,
the dog's veterinarian,
- 469. tie 'em up in litigation
for 10 or 15 years.
- 470. I'm telling you,
they bat a thousand every time.
- 471. He knows that.
That's why he's not gonna talk to you.
- 472. Okay, let's look through
the looking glass the other way.
- 473. What do you mean?
- 474. We got a guy who wants to talk,
but he's constrained.
- 475. - What if he were compelled to talk?
- Oh, torture. Great ratings.
- 476. What do you mean, "compelled"?
- 477. I mean
compelled by a Justice Department.
- 478. State courts. Be a witness.
- 479. That would cut through any
confidentiality agreement, wouldn't it?
- 480. - What does that do?
- What do you mean, what does it do?
- 481. What I mean is like, how does it cut
through the confidentiality agreement?
- 482. Because he has to reveal it
in a court of law.
- 483. It's on record. It's out.
It's no secret anymore.
- 484. So how can they restrain his speech
or retaliate? It's out in the world.
- 485. If you could engineer it into the court
record, you might have something.
- 486. They would have a hell
of a time trying to
- 487. restrain his speech
then, wouldn't they?
- 488. Yeah, but what venue?
- 489. And where does he get...
Does he have killer attorneys?
- 490. I don't think he's got any attorneys.
- 491. He's gonna need attorneys who aren't
afraid of risking years of litigation
- 492. and millions of dollars
of their own dough in legal costs.
- 493. What do you say, Mike?
What do you think?
- 494. Even if he gets the defense team,
- 495. will he go for it?
- 496. You're awfully overqualified,
- 497. I'm trying to start a new career.
- 498. I believe I could be a good teacher.
- 499. Let me give it some thought.
- 500. And not a lot of companies
in the healthcare field
- 501. hire ex-tobacco scientists.
- 502. That's it.
- 503. It's where our babies were born.
- 504. Debbie took her first steps
right there on...
- 505. In the grass.
- 506. - I didn't plan on this.
- Hey, hey, hey.
- 507. Come on. Come on.
- 508. We can make this work for us, okay?
- 509. It's just, it's not...
- 510. It's a smaller scale.
- 511. Simpler, easier, more time.
- 512. More time together,
more time with the kids.
- 513. More time for us, okay? It's just...
- 514. Can you imagine me coming home
from some job
- 515. feeling good at the end of the day?
- 516. This is gonna be better.
- 517. This is gonna be better.
- 518. Love your home
with beautiful Broyhill furniture.
- 519. You'll find incredible sale prices
- 520. throughout Smith's Broyhill
- 521. with extra savings on every style
for every room in your home.
- 522. If you've been putting off
decorating that special room,
- 523. now's the time to act during
the love-your-home sale at Smith's.
- 524. - Back to...
- Welcome back.
- 525. Hey, baby. What's wrong?
- 526. Who's that outside, Daddy?
- 527. Did you see somebody
or did you hear them?
- 528. I heard him.
- 529. - Where?
- In the backyard.
- 530. Sit at Daddy's desk, okay?
Why don't you sit up at the desk.
- 531. All right?
- 532. Get out some paper,
and draw me a picture, okay?
- 533. What are you gonna draw me, baby?
An animal? Something like that?
- 534. You stay down here until
Daddy gets back, all right, Barbara?
- 535. You stay down here.
- 536. You almost got your damn head
- 537. Daddy!
- 538. It was just a raccoon, baby. Nothin'.
- 539. They're nocturnal.
You know what that means?
- 540. That means that
they only come out at nighttime.
- 541. - Yeah.
- Lowell. Jeffrey Wigand.
- 542. Is it too late?
- 543. No, no, it's okay. I...
- 544. - How's the new place?
- The new place? New.
- 545. You okay?
- 546. Sure.
- 547. was thinking
of calling you tomorrow anyway.
- 548. How's your kids
handling the new house?
- 549. Good.
- 550. - You got kids?
- We have a couple.
- 551. One's hers, one's mine.
Everybody uses a different name.
- 552. Modern marriage.
- 553. How's Liane?
- 554. She's okay.
- 555. Hold on a minute.
- 556. Lowell, somebody may be following me.
I don't know.
- 557. They came on the property
- 558. What do you mean, following you?
Did you call the police?
- 559. I don't wanna be paranoid. I mean...
- 560. Maybe it's a game.
Some kind of mind game.
- 561. What do you really think?
- 562. I don't know what the fuck I really think.
- 563. Are they doing it?
Is some crank doing it?
- 564. Are they doing it
to make me feel paranoid?
- 565. Are they doing it for real and don't
give a shit what I think? I don't know.
- 566. I don't fuckin' know.
- 567. Jeffrey, describe for me in detail
- 568. Well...
- 569. No. Look, I mean, there was a footprint.
- 570. It's probably not important at all.
You know, I got a job now.
- 571. I'm teaching high school.
Japanese and chemistry.
- 572. So what were you calling about?
- 573. You called me.
- 574. No, you said
you were gonna call me tomorrow.
- 575. - So, what about?
- Oh, yes, yes, yes. I did.
- 576. I wanted to talk to you.
I wanted to hook up with you,
- 577. talk to you about
what we were talking about in your car.
- 578. Okay.
- 579. It makes you feel good,
putting what you know to use?
- 580. - How'd you know that, Lowell?
- It's obvious, isn't it?
- 581. Hello? Are you there?
- 582. Yeah.
- 583. Look...
- 584. Thanks for talking.
I'm sorry I woke you up. I didn't know...
- 585. It's okay.
- 586. Lowell.
- 587. Who is this?
- 588. Do not call here! Do not...
- 589. - What are you gonna get us?
- 590. The Internet said
you did graduate work at Wisconsin,
- 591. then went to UC La Jolla
with Professor Herbert? Marcus...
- 592. - Marcuse.
- 593. He was my mentor.
- 594. He had a major influence
on the New Left in the late '60s.
- 595. - And on me, personally.
- Next to your father?
- 596. My father? What the hell's that
got to do with my father?
- 597. I, uh...
- 598. Is that why you became a journalist?
Then you get to ask all the questions?
- 599. You charge by the hour?
- 600. My father was a
- 601. Most ingenious man I ever knew.
- 602. My father left us
when I was five-years-old.
- 603. He was not the most ingenious man
I ever knew.
- 604. Let's get back to Brown & Williamson.
- 605. If you decide to go on 60 Minutes,
- 606. I gotta know everything
about why you were fired.
- 607. Why?
- 608. They're gonna dig up stuff
from your past,
- 609. they're gonna throw it at you.
I gotta know what they're gonna throw.
- 610. You understand?
- 611. I drink.
- 612. Couple of occasions,
more than I should have.
- 613. Mmm-hmm.
- 614. I was cited for shoplifting once,
but it was a mistake.
- 615. Pushed Liane one time.
- 616. We were both stressed out
because of the pressure.
- 617. She went to her mother's.
- 618. I got fired
- 619. because when I get angry,
I have difficulty censoring myself,
- 620. and I don't like to be pushed around.
- 621. I'm not pushing you around.
I'm asking you questions.
- 622. I'm just a commodity to you, aren't I?
- 623. I could be anything, right?
- 624. Anything worth putting on
- 625. To a network,
probably we're all commodities.
- 626. To me, you're not a commodity.
What you are is important.
- 627. You go public, and 30 million people
hear what you gotta say,
- 628. nothing, I mean nothing,
will ever be the same again.
- 629. You believe that?
- 630. - No.
- You should.
- 631. Because when you're done,
- 632. the judgment is gonna go down in
the court of public opinion, my friend.
- 633. And that's the power you have.
- 634. - You believe that?
- I believe that? Yes, I believe that.
- 635. You believe that because
you get information out to people,
- 636. - something happens?
- 637. Maybe that's just what you've been
telling yourself all these years
- 638. to justify having a good job.
- 639. Having status.
- 640. Maybe for the audience,
it's just voyeurism.
- 641. Something to do on a Sunday night.
- 642. Maybe it won't change a fuckin' thing,
- 643. and people like myself and my family
- 644. are left hung out to dry, used up,
- 645. Are you talking to me, or did somebody
else just walk in here? I never...
- 646. Don't evade a choice you gotta make
by questioning my reputation
- 647. or 60 Minutes
with this cheap skepticism.
- 648. I have to put my family's welfare
on the line here, my friend.
- 649. What are you putting up?
You're putting up words.
- 650. "Words."
- 651. While you've been clicking around some
fucking company golf tournaments,
- 652. I've been out in the world givin' my word
and backing it up with action.
- 653. Now, are you gonna go
and do this thing or not?
- 654. I said I'd call the kids
before they went to bed.
- 655. Stringer was
supposed to be shooting
- 656. B-roll on street cops in New Orleans.
- 657. What's with all the horses?
- 658. Camera guy's got a thing
about mounted police.
- 659. Don't any of these guys ride in cars?
- 660. - How long are these things?
- What was he saying?
- 661. Hello. Yes, I'm trying to reach
Mr. Richard Scruggs.
- 662. This is Richard Scruggs.
- 663. Can you hold on a second, please?
- 664. Lowell, got him on the phone.
- 665. Hello, I'm Lowell Bergman.
- 666. Hold on. Mobile Approach,
this is Leo-November-643. Over.
- 667. Request a flight level of 220
on a heading of 284 degrees. Over.
- 668. Mr. Bergman?
- 669. Yes, I'm right here.
Could you call me back on a hard line?
- 670. All right.
- 671. Area code 212-555-0199.
- 672. I'll call you then.
- 673. - What do we do with that?
- I don't know.
- 674. Richard Scruggs.
- 675. You filed a lawsuit against tobacco
on behalf of the State of Mississippi.
- 676. - Did you not?
- That's right.
- 677. I'm working with someone now
- 678. who's the former head of research
at Brown & Williamson.
- 679. Former corporate officer there.
- 680. What's your interest in this,
- 681. Well, he may tape an interview with us,
- 682. and we believe if his testimony
showed up in a court record first,
- 683. it would free him up
from his confidentiality agreement
- 684. and give him some protection.
- 685. It could work.
If it's public record, it's public record.
- 686. Yeah, and
he's gonna need legal representation.
- 687. He sure as hell will.
- 688. Has he decided to go public?
- 689. Because let me tell ya,
we been doin' this for three years now,
- 690. and we've worked
with a lot of corporate cases
- 691. involving whistle-blowers.
- 692. So we know Big Tobacco will do
everything in their power to stop him.
- 693. So is your man truly committed?
- 694. Well, actually, no. He's on the fence.
That's the point.
- 695. Well, we'd certainly be interested
in making his acquaintance.
- 696. But without knowing
what he's gonna do...
- 697. Would you want him to call you,
or you wanna call him?
- 698. How do you wanna do it?
- 699. It would be better if he called us.
- 700. - Yeah. Okay.
- All right?
- 701. Okay, thank you. Shit.
- 702. We need cops on the streets.
We don't need them on horses.
- 703. - I don't know what he was thinking.
- For God's sake.
- 704. - This guy got a horse fetish?
- All right, all right.
- 705. Get me to New Orleans this afternoon.
- 706. I'll shoot the fucking thing myself!
- 707. - Have a good one.
- All right.
- 708. What are you cooking?
- 709. - I'm cooking pasta primavera.
- Oh, I love that stuff.
- 710. I'm going to have to go downstairs.
- 711. Jeffrey!
- 712. Jeffrey! Jeffrey!
- 713. Jeffrey! Jeffrey!
- 714. What happened?
- 715. Dispatcher received a call
of shots fired in the area.
- 716. Uniforms arrived on the scene, found
this white male subject shot to death.
- 717. Was it gang-related?
- 718. There's no indication
as far as a tag or an advertisement.
- 719. Yeah.
- 720. They're terrorizing us. Death threats.
My family, my kids.
- 721. What are you talking about?
- 722. Someone put a bullet in my mailbox.
- 723. - Jeff, call the FBI right away.
- They do this with impunity.
- 724. Jeff...
- 725. They get to go home at night.
- 726. What does it cost these people
to do this to us? Nothing!
- 727. My girls are crying. So fuck them.
- 728. - wanna tape. I'm done...
- I heard you.
- 729. I gotta arrange for a legal defense first.
- 730. gotta get you to testify in court,
get it on public record.
- 731. Then hold it off the air until you
got that, but I wanna go to New York,
- 732. and I wanna go on the record right now.
- 733. Good. But, Jeff...
- 734. I'll call them, Lowell.
- 735. Did you handle the round, Mr. Wigand?
- 736. Yes, I'm afraid I did.
- 737. We won't be able to lift usable prints.
- 738. Do you own a gun, Mr. Wigand?
- 739. - A gun? Yes.
- What caliber is your gun?
- 740. What caliber is my gun?
- 741. Yes, sir. What caliber is your gun?
- 742. What does that have to do
with the price of tea in China?
- 743. You think I put the bullet
in the mailbox myself?
- 744. If we could take a look, Mr. Wigand.
- 745. Why do you keep this gun?
- 746. I don't think it's unconstitutional yet
to own a gun. I'm a target shooter.
- 747. That bullet was for a.38 caliber.
Do you own a.38?
- 748. Yes, I do. A.38 Target Master
in my gun safe downstairs.
- 749. A.45 Gold Cup, a.22 target pistol.
- 750. Do you have a history
of emotional problems, Mr. Wigand?
- 751. Yeah. Yes, I do.
- 752. Yes, I get extremely emotional when
assholes put bullets in my mailbox.
- 753. I didn't tell you that so
you could pick it up and take it away.
- 754. Jeffrey!
- 755. What's going on?
- 756. I told them you had
an e-mail death threat that told you
- 757. if you didn't shut the "F" up,
they were gonna kill you.
- 758. You can't take that.
It's personal property.
- 759. My personal correspondence,
letters to my brother, my will.
- 760. You all right?
- 761. That computer has every single...
- 762. You all right, Mr. Wigand?
- 763. We need to take a look
at your gun safe, Mr. Wigand.
- 764. I'm telling you your agents
in that office are acting improperly.
- 765. Now who are they trying to protect?
- 766. Let me tell you something, Lowell.
- 767. You're talking about two agents
in a regional office in Louisville.
- 768. I got the goddamned Unabomber
threatening to blow up LAX.
- 769. gotta move 45 agents
from all over the country into LA.
- 770. All right?
When I get a chance, I'll give it a look.
- 771. You better take a good look
because I'm getting two things.
- 772. Pissed off and curious!
- 773. Any of these guys been offered jobs
in corporate security after they retire?
- 774. Either one of those guys got
ex-agent pals already in those jobs?
- 775. Like, for instance, their ex-supervisor
who's already at Brown & Williamson
- 776. as we fuckin' speak!
- 777. I'll give it a look.
- 778. - You're getting my drift?
- ' give it a look.
- 779. So is everything okay?
- 780. - How are the rooms? Comfortable?
- Yes, very.
- 781. Do you know,
I enjoy your work so much.
- 782. When you're talkin' to somebody,
I always feel like I'm right there.
- 783. Thank you
for saying that.
- 784. Do you think we could talk
about the taping?
- 785. Tomorrow's taping?
- 786. Just so we can get it
out of the way and order.
- 787. Yeah, well, questions will go
towards what work you did there,
- 788. - why you were fired and other...
- 789. What are you taping?
- 790. I'm doin' an interview.
- 791. An interview?
- 792. Do you know what they will do to us?
I thought we...
- 793. I'm sorry.
- 794. Liane, this is a preliminary...
- 795. You didn't tell her we were taping?
- 796. What did she think she was
coming to New York for?
- 797. Talk about it, think about it.
I had a plan to ease her into it,
- 798. but I really don't know how to do that.
- 799. Oh, man.
- 800. Who are these people?
- 801. Ordinary people under
extraordinary pressure, Mike.
- 802. What the hell you expect,
grace and consistency?
- 803. Five, four, three, two...
- 804. You heard Mr. Sandefur
say before Congress
- 805. that he believed
nicotine was not addictive.
- 806. I believe Mr. Sandefur perjured himself
- 807. because I watched those testimonies
- 808. All of us did.
- 809. I mean,
there was this whole line of people,
- 810. whole line of CEOs up there,
- 811. Part of the reason I'm here is that I felt
- 812. that their representation
- 813. at least within
Brown & Williamson's representation,
- 814. clearly misstated what is
common language within the company.
- 815. We are in
the nicotine delivery business.
- 816. And that's what cigarettes are for.
- 817. Delivery device for nicotine.
- 818. A delivery device for nicotine.
- 819. Put it in your mouth, light it up
and you're going to get your fix.
- 820. You're gonna get your fix.
- 821. You're saying that Brown & Williamson
- 822. manipulates and adjusts
the nicotine fix
- 823. not by artificially adding nicotine,
but by enhancing the effect of nicotine
- 824. through the use of chemical elements
such as ammonia.
- 825. The process is known
as impact boosting.
- 826. While not spiking nicotine,
they clearly manipulate it.
- 827. There is extensive use
of this technology,
- 828. known as ammonia chemistry.
- 829. It allows for the nicotine to be
more rapidly absorbed in the lung
- 830. and therefore affect
the brain and central nervous system.
- 831. The straw that broke
the camel's back for me
- 832. and really put me in trouble
- 833. was a compound called "coumarin."
- 834. When I came on board at B&W,
- 835. they had tried to transition
from coumarin to a similar flavor
- 836. that would give the same taste
and had been unsuccessful.
- 837. I wanted it out immediately.
- 838. I was told that it would affect sales,
so I should mind my own business.
- 839. I constructed a memo to Mr. Sandefur
indicating I could not in conscience
- 840. continue with coumarin in a product
that we now knew,
- 841. we had documentation,
- 842. was similar to Coumadin,
a lung-specific carcinogen.
- 843. And you sent the document
forward to Sandefur?
- 844. I sent the document forward
- 845. I was told that we would continue
to work on a substitute.
- 846. We weren't going to remove it
- 847. as it would impact sales
and that that was his decision.
- 848. In other words, you are charging
Sandefur and Brown & Williamson
- 849. with ignoring
health considerations consciously?
- 850. Most certainly.
- 851. And on March 24,
- 852. Thomas Sandefur, CEO
of Brown & Williamson, had you fired.
- 853. And the reason he gave you?
- 854. Poor communication skills.
- 855. And you wish you hadn't come forward?
- 856. You wish you hadn't blown the whistle?
- 857. Yeah, there are times
I wish I hadn't done it.
- 858. There are times I feel compelled to do it.
- 859. If you'd asked me, would I do it again,
do I think it's worth it?
- 860. Yeah, I think it's worth it.
- 861. - Hi.
- 862. My name is Jeff Wigand.
- 863. You can call me "Mr. Wigand,"
you can call me "Dr. Wigand."
- 864. I have a Ph.D.
in biochemistry and endocrinology.
- 865. You can call me "Jeff."
- 866. Anything else you want to call me,
you'll have to do so in private.
- 867. Um, okay.
- 868. I find chemistry to be magical.
I find it an adventure.
- 869. An exploration into the building blocks
of our physical universe.
- 870. So how many of you
have taken chemistry before?
- 871. Okay, I've never taught it before,
so we're gonna be fine.
- 872. Our first experiment is gonna be
- 873. measuring the molecular weight
- 874. He's on line three.
- 875. - Hello?
- Mr. Scruggs? Jeff Wigand.
- 876. Lowell Bergman said
I should give you a call.
- 877. My co-counsel, Ron Motley and I,
- 878. have filed a lawsuit
against the tobacco industry
- 879. on behalf of the State of Mississippi
- 880. to get the state reimbursed
- 881. for treatin' people
with smoking-related illness.
- 882. If you'd be interested in talkin' to us,
we'd certainly like to talk to you.
- 883. When should we do this?
- 884. Who the hell are you?
What are you doing in my house?
- 885. - It's okay, Jeff. It's okay.
- Mr. Wigand, you need to speak to...
- 886. You've got your own security now.
- 887. You know, Lowell, I can't afford to.
- 888. No, they're volunteered.
A friend owns a large security company.
- 889. How're you doing, Mr. Wigand?
I'm John Telafarro.
- 890. There'll be three of us on the detail.
- 891. I'm going to the store.
- 892. Please explain our new houseguests
to your children.
- 893. Mrs. Wigand's leaving the house.
- 894. I called Richard Scruggs in Mississippi.
- 895. I heard.
- 896. I'm gonna be a witness for them
in their litigation.
- 897. So I'm gonna fly to Pascagoula,
give a deposition.
- 898. I know. I'm gonna go there tonight.
- 899. You all right?
- 900. - Did you have a good day?
- Yes, I did. I had a great day.
- 901. - Coffee, Lowell?
- Yeah, all right.
- 902. Wanna play that game
we were playing before?
- 903. You know, I think you got it up to five.
- 904. I was ahead of you, and then you just...
- 905. Please don't wash your hands
in the sink.
- 906. Where should I wash them?
- 907. Use the bathroom.
- 908. What's the difference?
- 909. That's for food.
- 910. Leave it on. Just leave it on! Okay?
- 911. I don't think I can do this.
- 912. I want to stand by my husband.
- 913. I really do, Jeffrey, but...
- 914. I don't think I can do this anymore.
- 915. I am so sorry.
- 916. Can we talk about this when I get back?
- 917. Yes, Jeffrey.
- 918. It's okay.
- 919. Jeff!
- 920. You've been served.
- 921. Now, what this one is,
is a temporary restraining order,
- 922. a gag order,
issued by a Kentucky court.
- 923. Jeff Wigand, Michael Moore.
- 924. Good to meet you, Dr. Wigand.
- 925. Mike's our attorney general down here.
- 926. I was just explaining to Jeff
they got a Kentucky court
- 927. to issue a gag order
to stop his deposition today.
- 928. - Right.
- 929. they tried to get
the Mississippi court to honor it,
- 930. but the judge threw it out.
- 931. However, for you, there is a more
perilous effect of the gag order.
- 932. Dr. Wigand, you do understand
what can happen, don't you?
- 933. I'm not free to testify, here.
- 934. That's right.
If you violate the Kentucky order,
- 935. when you step foot back in Kentucky
- 936. they can find you in contempt
and they can incarcerate you.
- 937. And you ought to know that.
- 938. - Jail.
- Possibly, yes.
- 939. That is one
of the possible consequences
- 940. of your testifying here today.
- 941. How does one go to jail?
- 942. What does my family do?
- 943. Go on welfare?
- 944. If my wife has to work,
who's gonna look after the kids?
- 945. Put food on the table?
I mean, my children need me.
- 946. If I'm not teaching, there's no medical.
- 947. No medical, even on co-pay,
that's like, tuition...
- 948. Dr. Wigand, listen.
- 949. You may not be able to do this thing.
- 950. As I understand from Dick,
you're our key witness,
- 951. and I hope you don't withdraw.
- 952. I guess we'd all understand if you did.
- 953. Guys, I gotta go.
I'm gonna be late for court.
- 954. I'll see y'all later.
Dr. Wigand, good luck.
- 955. I know what you're facing, Jeff.
- 956. And I think I know how you're feeling.
- 957. In the Navy, I flewA-6's off carriers.
- 958. In combat, events have
a duration of seconds.
- 959. Sometimes minutes.
- 960. But what you're going through
goes on day in, day out,
- 961. whether you're ready for it or not.
- 962. Week in, week out.
- 963. Month after month after month.
- 964. Whether you're up
or whether you're down.
- 965. You're assaulted psychologically.
- 966. You're assaulted financially,
- 967. which is its own special kind of violence
because it's directed at your kids.
- 968. What school can you afford?
- 969. How will that affect their lives?
- 970. You're asking yourself,
"Will that limit what they may become?"
- 971. You feel your whole family's future
- 972. held hostage.
- 973. I do know how it is.
- 974. You attract a crowd.
- 975. Yeah. Great.
- 976. I heard about the Kentucky gag order.
- 977. I don't know what to do.
- 978. Hold on a second.
- 979. Would you please ask Mr. Motley if he
expects his witness to appear or not?
- 980. I can't seem to find
the criteria to decide.
- 981. It's too big a decision to make
without being resolved in my own mind.
- 982. Maybe things have changed.
- 983. A lot's changed.
- 984. You mean since this morning?
- 985. No, I mean since whenever.
- 986. Fuck it.
- 987. Let's go to court.
- 988. Dr. Wigand
would like to leave now.
- 989. Okay, Jeff. I'm gonna sit you down
at that table over there.
- 990. I want to start as fast as possible.
- 991. I don't want to give them a chance
to get another restraining order. Okay?
- 992. - Let's go.
- Good luck, Doc.
- 993. Please stand. Raise your right hand.
- 994. Do you swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth
- 995. and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
- 996. - I do.
- You may be seated.
- 997. You understand, Dr. Wigand,
you are under oath?
- 998. This is a sworn deposition.
There's no judge. It's not a trial.
- 999. Will you state your name for the record?
- 1000. Jeffrey S. Wigand.
- 1001. Got any idea what's going on in there?
- 1002. No, I don't have a clue.
- 1003. - That is correct.
- In other words, it acts as a drug...
- 1004. - Object to the form of the question.
- It acts as a drug...
- 1005. - Object to the form...
- It acts as a drug...
- 1006. - Object!
- Is there an echo in here?
- 1007. Your objection's been recorded.
- 1008. She typed it into her little machine
over there. It's on the record.
- 1009. So now I'll proceed
with my deposition of my witness.
- 1010. - Does it act as a drug?
- Dr. Wigand!
- 1011. I am instructing you
- 1012. not to answer that question.
- 1013. In accordance to the terms of
the contractual obligations
- 1014. undertaken by you
- 1015. not to disclose any information
- 1016. about your work at the Brown
& Williamson Tobacco Company,
- 1017. and in accordance
with the force and effect
- 1018. of the temporary restraining order
that has been entered against you
- 1019. by the court in the State of Kentucky.
- 1020. That means you don't talk.
- 1021. Mr. Motley, we have rights here.
- 1022. Oh, you've got rights.
- 1023. And lefts. Ups and downs and middles.
- 1024. So what? You don't get to instruct
anything around here!
- 1025. This is not North Carolina,
not South Carolina, nor Kentucky.
- 1026. This is the sovereign State
of Mississippi's proceeding.
- 1027. Wipe that smirk off your face!
- 1028. Dr. Wigand's deposition
will be part of this record!
- 1029. And I'm gonna take
my witness' testimony
- 1030. whether the hell you like it or not!
- 1031. Answer the question, Doctor.
- 1032. Yes. It produces
a physiological response,
- 1033. which meets the definition of a drug.
- 1034. Nicotine is associated with impact,
- 1035. It has a pharmacological effect that
crosses the blood-brain barrier intact.
- 1036. Thank you, Doctor.
- 1037. One of the reasons I'm here is that I felt
- 1038. that their representation clearly...
- 1039. Run that Sandefur piece
on "nicotine's not addictive."
- 1040. Run that on camera, then cut right to
Wigand with "I believe they perjured..."
- 1041. Then go wide to the CEOs
all taking the oath.
- 1042. Then back on Jeff
- 1043. and play the pause after
the word "felt" on the B-side.
- 1044. Hell of a show, Mike.
- 1045. - It went great in Mississippi, Mike.
- 1046. I heard Wigand's deposition got sealed.
- 1047. They argued that he was going to reveal
the secret formula of Kools to the world.
- 1048. Sealed doesn't
hurt Scruggs' litigation,
- 1049. and since we're the only ones
with the story,
- 1050. I believe we're sitting on an exclusive.
- 1051. I like that.
- 1052. Corporate has
- 1053. We've got a meeting at Black Rock
first thing in the morning.
- 1054. - When's the air date?
- Lowell, Sharon's on line three.
- 1055. - Tell her I'll call her back in 10.
- Here we go.
- 1056. That they had long
known that the nicotine in tobacco
- 1057. is an addictive drug despite
their public statements to the contrary.
- 1058. Like the testimony before Congress
of Dr. Wigand's former boss,
- 1059. Brown & Williamson's chief
executive officer, Thomas Sandefur.
- 1060. believe that nicotine is not addictive.
- 1061. believe Mr. Sandefur perjured himself
- 1062. because I watched those testimonies
- 1063. All of us did. I mean,
there was this whole line of people,
- 1064. whole line of CEOs up there,
- 1065. Part of the reason I'm here
is that I felt
- 1066. that their representation
- 1067. what is common language
within the company.
- 1068. We are in
the nicotine delivery business.
- 1069. There is extensive use
of this technology,
- 1070. known as ammonia chemistry.
- 1071. It allows for the nicotine to be
more rapidly absorbed in the lung
- 1072. and therefore affect
the brain and central nervous system.
- 1073. That's what
cigarettes are for.
- 1074. Delivery device for nicotine.
- 1075. A delivery device
- 1076. Put it in your mouth, light it up
and you're going to get your fix.
- 1077. You're gonna get your fix.
- 1078. - Shall I send for coffee? Sorry I'm late.
- No, we're fine.
- 1079. - Are you sure?
- 1080. All right. I thought we'd get together
- 1081. because there's a legal concept
- 1082. that has been getting
some new attention recently.
- 1083. Tortious interference.
- 1084. If two people have an agreement,
like a confidentiality agreement,
- 1085. and one of them breaks it because they
are induced to do so by a third party,
- 1086. the third party can be sued
for damages for interfering.
- 1087. Hence, tortious interference.
- 1088. "Interfering"? That's what we do.
- 1089. I think what we're trying to tell you
is that it happens all the time.
- 1090. This is a news organization. People are
always telling us things they shouldn't.
- 1091. We have to verify if it's true
and in the public interest.
- 1092. And if it is, we air it.
- 1093. And after we corroborate it.
- 1094. That's why we've never lost a lawsuit
and run a classy show.
- 1095. Anything else?
- 1096. And 60 Minutes' verification
is exact and precise.
- 1097. And I don't think it would hurt
to make sure you're right on this one.
- 1098. Why? You think we have liability?
- 1099. What's the CBS News position, Eric?
- 1100. There's a possibility. It's rather remote.
- 1101. But one we have to check on, Mike.
- 1102. I've retained outside counsel
to do exactly that
- 1103. on a segment, I might add,
that's already rife with problems.
- 1104. What does that mean? "Rife with..."
- 1105. I'm told unusual promises
were made to Wigand.
- 1106. No, only that we would hold his story
until it was safe for him.
- 1107. And I'm told there are questions
as to our star witness' veracity.
- 1108. His "veracity" was good enough
for the State of Mississippi.
- 1109. Our standards have to be
higher than anyone else's,
- 1110. because we are the standard
for everybody else.
- 1111. Well, as a "standard," I'll hang with
"is this guy telling the truth?"
- 1112. Well, with tortious interference,
I'm afraid, the greater the truth,
- 1113. the greater the damage.
- 1114. Come again?
- 1115. They own the information
- 1116. The truer it is,
the greater the damage to them.
- 1117. If he lied,
he didn't disclose their information,
- 1118. and the damages are smaller.
- 1119. - Is this Alice in Wonderland?
- You said, "on this one."
- 1120. What about this one?
- 1121. If this holds up,
and it very well may not, Mike.
- 1122. But if it did and we aired this segment,
- 1123. and CBS was sued
by Brown & Williamson,
- 1124. I think we could be at grave risk.
- 1125. - How grave?
- Well, at the end of the day,
- 1126. because of your segment,
- 1127. the Brown & Williamson
- 1128. could own CBS.
- 1129. Oh. You know, I am sorry,
but I'm due upstairs.
- 1130. Is CBS Corporate telling CBS News,
- 1131. "Do not go to air with this story"?
- 1132. You're getting ahead of yourself.
We're all in this together.
- 1133. We're all CBS. We'll find out soon.
- 1134. Thank you, gentlemen.
- 1135. "Tortious interference."
- 1136. That sounds like a disease
caught by a radio.
- 1137. - Lunch?
- 1138. Don't worry.
We call the shots around here.
- 1139. - Hello?
- Debbie, it's me.
- 1140. I want you to check some filings,
- 1141. and give me John Wilson's number
at Bear Stearns.
- 1142. - What now?
- Kluster's coming over.
- 1143. Hello, Lowell, Mike.
- 1144. Don.
- 1145. There has been so much
soul searching about this Wigand.
- 1146. I've decided we should cut
an alternate version of the show
- 1147. without his interview.
- 1148. So what happened to Ms. Caperelli's
checking with outside counsel first?
- 1149. - All that crap?
- That's happening.
- 1150. Hopefully, we won't have to
use the alternate,
- 1151. but we should have it in the can.
- 1152. I'm not touching my film.
- 1153. - I'm afraid you are.
- No, I'm not.
- 1154. We're doing this with
or without you, Lowell.
- 1155. If you like, I can assign
another producer to edit your show.
- 1156. Since when has the paragon
of investigative journalism
- 1157. allowed lawyers to determine
the news content on 60 Minutes?
- 1158. It's an alternate version.
- 1159. So what
if we have an alternate version?
- 1160. And I don't think our being cautious
is so damned unreasonable.
- 1161. So now, if you will
excuse me, gentlemen,
- 1162. Mr. Rather's been complaining
about his chair again.
- 1163. Before you go,
- 1164. I discovered this.
- 1165. SEC filing
- 1166. for the sale of CBS Corporation
to Westinghouse Corporation.
- 1167. - What?
- Yeah, I heard rumors.
- 1168. It's not a rumor. It's a sale.
- 1169. If Tisch can unload CBS
for $81 a share to Westinghouse,
- 1170. and then is suddenly threatened
- 1171. with a multi-billion dollar lawsuit
from Brown & Williamson,
- 1172. that could screw up the sale,
could it not?
- 1173. - What are you implying?
- I'm not implying. I'm quoting.
- 1174. "More vested interests. Persons who
will profit from this merger.
- 1175. "Ms. Helen Caperelli, general counsel
of CBS News, 3.9 million.
- 1176. "Mr. Eric Kluster,
President of CBS News,
- 1177. "1.4 million."
- 1178. Are you suggesting that
she and Eric are influenced by money?
- 1179. No, no, of course they're not influenced
by money. They work for free.
- 1180. And you are a volunteer
- 1181. CBS does not do that. And you're
questioning our journalistic integrity.
- 1182. No, I'm questioning your hearing.
- 1183. You hear "reasonable"
and "tortious interference."
- 1184. I hear "potential Brown & Williamson
- 1185. "jeopardizing the sale
of CBS to Westinghouse."
- 1186. I hear, "Shut the segment down.
Cut Wigand loose.
- 1187. "Obey orders and fuck off."
That's what I hear.
- 1188. - You're exaggerating.
- I am?
- 1189. You pay me to go get guys like Wigand,
- 1190. to draw him out, to get him to trust us,
to get him to go on television.
- 1191. I do. I deliver him. He sits. He talks.
- 1192. He violates his own fucking
- 1193. And he's only the key witness in
the biggest public health reform issue,
- 1194. maybe the biggest, most expensive
- 1195. corporate malfeasance case
in US history.
- 1196. And Jeffrey Wigand,
who's out on a limb,
- 1197. does he go on television
and tell the truth?
- 1198. Yes. Is it newsworthy?
- 1199. Yes. Are we gonna air it?
- 1200. Of course not. Why?
- 1201. Because he's not telling the truth? No.
- 1202. Because he is telling the truth.
That's why we're not gonna air it.
- 1203. And the more truth he tells,
the worse it gets.
- 1204. You are a fanatic, an anarchist.
You know that?
- 1205. If we can't have a whole show, then
I want half a show rather than no show.
- 1206. But, oh, no. Not you.
- 1207. You won't be satisfied unless
you're putting the company at risk!
- 1208. What are you? Are you a businessman
or are you a newsman?
- 1209. Because that happens to be
what Mike and I
- 1210. and some other people
around here do for a living.
- 1211. Put the corporation at risk?
Give me a fucking break!
- 1212. These people are
putting our whole reason
- 1213. for doing what we do on the line!
- 1214. - Lowell!
- 1215. I'm with Don on this.
- 1216. What's wrong?
- 1217. They're killing the Wigand interview.
- 1218. What?
- 1219. They're pretending it's process.
That's bullshit. It's foregone.
- 1220. What are you and Mike gonna do?
- 1221. I'm alone on this.
- 1222. - Oh, baby.
- 1223. It's Jeffrey Wigand.
- 1224. Jeffrey. How are you?
- 1225. How's the family? Okay?
- 1226. There is no family.
- 1227. What do you mean,
"there is no family"?
- 1228. Liane has filed for divorce.
- 1229. And, so, I've moved out.
- 1230. see the girls a couple of days a week.
- 1231. - Where are you staying now?
- Our favorite hotel, honey.
- 1232. I checked into room 930.
- 1233. Odd choice, huh?
- 1234. I don't know how to say this,
- 1235. Jeff, except to just say it right out.
- 1236. So, I'll say it. They do not want to air it.
- 1237. What?
- 1238. B&Wmay have threatened litigation.
- 1239. CBS is on the block.
- 1240. - But you, I mean, I know how you...
- 1241. "No," what?
- 1242. I do not think that you know for me
what it is to walk in my shoes.
- 1243. For my kids to have seen it,
- 1244. for them to know why I've
put them through what I did.
- 1245. The public airing of that,
the testament to why I did what I did.
- 1246. You're telling me it's not
gonna see the light of day?
- 1247. Jeff.
- 1248. Mrs. Wigand?
- 1249. It hasn't been Mrs. Wigand
for some time.
- 1250. I'm an investigator,
- 1251. and I was wondering if I could ask you
a couple of questions about that.
- 1252. All right.
- 1253. Seven months after we were married,
- 1254. we found out
that I had multiple sclerosis.
- 1255. And you had a daughter, Diane...
- 1256. Tommy Sandefur
told me himself.
- 1257. He's not going to allow Brown
& Williamson to be demonized
- 1258. to the American public.
- 1259. So I told Peter Jennings. And I...
- 1260. You had
- 1261. You had a small child to raise.
- 1262. Mention that part in the executive
summary and in the chapters.
- 1263. First wife
and estrangement of daughter.
- 1264. So I was telling Pete, I said,
"You've been taken in by this guy."
- 1265. The divorce was something
that we both wanted.
- 1266. He's a shoplifter.
- 1267. He's a convicted shoplifter.
- 1268. So, what are you gonna do?
- 1269. What do you think I'm gonna do?
Quit in protest?
- 1270. I'm not gonna do that.
- 1271. You're taking "no" for an answer?
- 1272. No, I'm not gonna take
"no" for an answer. No.
- 1273. You're not? What are you doing?
- 1274. I'm staying right here, doing my job.
Fighting to get my show on the air.
- 1275. You don't like it? Hey, I tell you what?
- 1276. Fire my ass.
- 1277. End up in a high-profile lawsuit with
Lowell, the First Amendment martyr?
- 1278. I don't think so. Take a look at this.
- 1279. This is a summary of a dossier
that's being prepared.
- 1280. He wouldn't lie about his whole life.
- 1281. Who's gonna believe him
about anything he says?
- 1282. The Wall Street Journal is doing
a major story, and, I think, The Post.
- 1283. You backed the wrong horse.
- 1284. The version without the interview
is gonna air the week after next.
- 1285. What was that about?
- 1286. - Get me Wigand.
- 1287. What the fuck is this? Fuck!
- 1288. You never told me
you were married before.
- 1289. - That you had a daughter.
- How is that any of your business?
- 1290. That is not something
that you people need to know.
- 1291. Oh, you know what we do
or do not need to know?
- 1292. Since when have you become
a media expert?
- 1293. What do you wanna do, Lowell?
Look up my ass, too?
- 1294. Oh, for God's sake.
- 1295. You're not even on this anymore.
What do you care?
- 1296. Jeff, wake the fuck up!
- 1297. Everybody is on the line here.
If they catch you in a lie,
- 1298. they can paint everything
with that brush, you understand?
- 1299. - Everything you say.
- I told the truth.
- 1300. Everything you say.
And I can't defend you, man,
- 1301. with one hand tied behind my back
- 1302. because you keep from me
what they can discover.
- 1303. And they will discover everything.
- 1304. I was young! I was young!
- 1305. Confused.
We didn't handle it the right way.
- 1306. She sued you for back payments
of child support?
- 1307. She did not sue me.
- 1308. We had a dispute over money.
I settled it. She dropped the complaint.
- 1309. Any other questions?
- 1310. Yes. Did you lie about
being on the American judo team
- 1311. in the Olympics?
- 1312. - What?
- Some public relations guy
- 1313. got hold of a tape of an interview
where you're saying
- 1314. you were on the American
judo team in the Olympics.
- 1315. What kind of shit is this?
- 1316. I was not on the team.
I sparred with the Olympic team. Okay?
- 1317. All right. ABC Telemarketing Company?
- 1318. - ABC...
- ABC Telemarketing Company.
- 1319. The can opener! A 39.95 can opener!
- 1320. I canceled payment. It was junk!
- 1321. You ever bounce a check, Lowell?
You ever look at another woman's tits?
- 1322. You ever cheat a little on your taxes?
- 1323. Whose life, if you look at it under
a microscope, doesn't have any flaws?
- 1324. Well, that's the whole point, Jeffrey.
That's the whole point.
- 1325. Anyone's, everyone's.
They are gonna look under every rock,
- 1326. dig up every flaw,
every mistake you've ever made.
- 1327. They are going to distort
- 1328. everything you've ever done, man.
Don't you understand?
- 1329. What does this have to do
with my testimony?
- 1330. What does it have to do
with my testimony?
- 1331. - I told the truth! It's true and provable!
- It's not about...
- 1332. That's not the fucking point,
whether you told the truth or not!
- 1333. Hello?
- 1334. I told the truth.
- 1335. told the truth.
- 1336. I gotta teach class. I gotta go.
I gotta teach class.
- 1337. And I gotta refute
every fucking accusation made
- 1338. in this report before
The Wall Street Journal runs.
- 1339. I am trying to protect you, man.
- 1340. I hope you improve
your batting average.
- 1341. They're cutting the interest
rate, and I have that great feature...
- 1342. - Hello?
- It's Lowell.
- 1343. Are you guys planning to do a piece on
a former top executive in Big Tobacco?
- 1344. - You caught me in a news meeting.
- Are you or are you not, Charlie?
- 1345. You bet we are,
and I can't talk to you now.
- 1346. - We gotta hook up.
- Sure. Where?
- 1347. - PJ'S.
- I'll be there.
- 1348. Yeah, I got it. 500 pages of it.
- 1349. They looked in every corner
of this guy's life,
- 1350. from the spousal abuse charge,
- 1351. to shoplifting, to a traffic ticket
he got once for running a red light.
- 1352. It's Terry Lenzner's outfit, IGI.
Jack, listen to me.
- 1353. Their strategy: discredit this guy,
- 1354. ruin his reputation
in The Wall Street Journal,
- 1355. and then nobody will ever listen
to what he's got to say about tobacco.
- 1356. He's dead unless I can
get this thing knocked down.
- 1357. Make it even a little more attractive.
- 1358. I don't know
if you're ever gonna get paid.
- 1359. - Is there any truth to any of it?
- That's a good question.
- 1360. "Is there any truth to any of it?"
I doubt it.
- 1361. - What's the deadline?
- 1362. - Fax me the summary.
- That's great, Jack.
- 1363. - Hey. How are you? Hey, listen.
- 1364. I hear you guys are sitting
on something sensational over there.
- 1365. - Really? Hi, June.
- Oh, hi, baby.
- 1366. - Catch you later.
- Okay. Take care.
- 1367. - When's your deadline?
- 1368. - Push it.
- What? Forget it.
- 1369. It's a smear campaign, Charlie.
- 1370. It's drawn from a selectively circulated...
- 1371. Oh, yeah. Real selective.
- 1372. About as hard to get a hold of
as the Manhattan phone book.
- 1373. Well, it's authoritative
and overwhelmingly documented.
- 1374. And it's bullshit. And if I'm right,
are you gonna put
- 1375. The Journal's reputation behind a story
that's gonna blow up in your face?
- 1376. I'll take a look at what you got,
- 1377. but I'm not moving any deadlines
because you say so.
- 1378. Are you all right?
- 1379. Yeah.
- 1380. Officer Muravchick?
- 1381. Thank you.
- 1382. Officer Muravchick, how are you?
- 1383. - I'm Sandra Sutherland.
- How do you do?
- 1384. Fine, thank you.
I'm doing a background check.
- 1385. Mind if I sit down?
- 1386. Your Honor,
could I have a word with you?
- 1387. You presided in a dispute
over support payments.
- 1388. Jeffrey Wigand? Yeah, I cited him.
- 1389. CBS is under criticism because
the CBS news program, 60 Minutes,
- 1390. will not be presenting an interview...
- 1391. What the hell are you doing?
- 1392. What does it look like I'm doing?
- 1393. No, no, no that. I'm talking
about the Associated Press.
- 1394. They got the story that we pulled this
interview, and they talked to Mike and I.
- 1395. Did you tell them that we were lying?
- 1396. No! I should have.
- 1397. I told them I disagreed with you,
Mike and Kluster
- 1398. that this segment
is as good as the original.
- 1399. I'm not lying for you.
I'm not gonna shut up for you.
- 1400. - Not on any of it.
- Hey, I'm not gonna fire you.
- 1401. Okay? Take a vacation. Now!
- 1402. Lowell? Look, I've decided
to preface Sunday's show.
- 1403. I did three minutes on The Evening
News. You'll want to see it.
- 1404. - Where are you going?
- I've been banished...
- 1405. In lieu of being fired.
- 1406. I took off on Tisch.
I took off on Corporate.
- 1407. They'll know they're not going to see
everything on Sunday night.
- 1408. I don't know. How does that
get Wigand on the air?
- 1409. Do me a favor, will you? Spare me.
- 1410. For God's sake, get in the real world.
What do you think?
- 1411. I'm going to resign in protest
to force it on the air?
- 1412. The answer's no. I don't plan
to spend the end of my days
- 1413. wandering in the wilderness
of National Public Radio.
- 1414. That decision I've already made.
- 1415. This Sunday,
Wallace will broadcast a report
- 1416. on the tobacco industry,
- 1417. including the tough tactics
tobacco companies employ
- 1418. to keep a lid on information
that might be damaging.
- 1419. Is there information
that people should have
- 1420. that they're not going to have
- 1421. because you're not going to
broadcast this interview?
- 1422. Yes.
- 1423. Today, CBS News president
- 1424. defended the network's decision
not to broadcast
- 1425. key portions
of the controversial interview.
- 1426. Mr. Klustersaid, quote,
"The atmosphere is tougher than ever."
- 1427. - Where's the rest?
- 1428. Where the hell's the rest?
- 1429. Nebraska football fans
voiced their criticism...
- 1430. You cut it!
- 1431. Coming up in
Bernard Goldberg's America.
- 1432. - You cut the guts out of what I said!
- It was a time consideration...
- 1433. Time? Bullshit! You corporate lackey.
- 1434. Who told you
your incompetent little fingers
- 1435. have the requisite skills to edit me?
- 1436. I'm trying to Band-Aid a situation
here, and you're too dim...
- 1437. Mike. Mike. Mike.
- 1438. "Mike"? "Mike"!
- 1439. Try "Mr. Wallace."
- 1440. We work in the same corporation,
- 1441. doesn't mean we work
in the same profession.
- 1442. Now, now what are you going to do
now? You going to finesse me?
- 1443. Lawyer me some more? I've been
in this profession 50 fucking years!
- 1444. You and the people you work for
are destroying the most respected,
- 1445. the highest rated, the most
profitable show on this network.
- 1446. Here. These are their leads,
- 1447. - I want you to have your reporters...
- Suein Hwang and Milo Geyelin.
- 1448. Have them make their own calls.
- 1449. They'll find that these sources
have a different story
- 1450. than the one that's in the dossier.
- 1451. Push the deadline, Charlie.
- 1452. I'll push it for a week.
I want Milo and Suein to go through it.
- 1453. What do you want to buy him for a gift?
- 1454. Mmm, he's into kind of little cars that...
- 1455. - That remote control thing?
- 1456. All right. We'll go do that tomorrow.
- 1457. The 63-36 vote was three
shy of the two-thirds needed to pass...
- 1458. - Mom. There's Dad.
- 1459. - On the TV.
- ... dating back to 1986.
- 1460. The most recent trouble
for Wigand occurred here...
- 1461. And in local news, WLKO, Louisville,
- 1462. has gained access
to a 500-page dossier
- 1463. on former Brown & Williamson
research head, Jeffrey Wigand,
- 1464. detailing charges of shoplifting
and failing to pay child support.
- 1465. Wigand is currently teaching
chemistry and Japanese
- 1466. at the duPont Manual High School.
- 1467. Maria.
- 1468. Thousands of documents
from inside the tobacco industry
- 1469. have surfaced over the past year.
- 1470. Documents that appear to confirm
- 1471. what a former US surgeon general
- 1472. and the current head of the Food and
Drug Administration have been saying.
- 1473. We learned of a tobacco insider
who could tell us
- 1474. whether or not the tobacco industry
has been leveling with the public.
- 1475. That insider was formerly
- 1476. a highly-placed executive
with a tobacco company.
- 1477. But we cannot broadcast what critical
information about tobacco,
- 1478. addiction and public health
he might be able to offer.
- 1479. Why? Because he had to sign
a confidentiality agreement
- 1480. with the tobacco company
he worked for.
- 1481. The management of CBS has told us
- 1482. that knowing he had that agreement,
- 1483. if we were to broadcast
an interview with him,
- 1484. CBS could be faced
with a multi-billion dollar lawsuit.
- 1485. The fact is, we are not allowed
even to mention his name
- 1486. or the name of the company
he worked for.
- 1487. And, of course,
we cannot show you his face.
- 1488. And your confidentiality
- 1489. - ... is still in force?
- Yes, it is.
- 1490. So what are they gonna do?
Sue you for making this appearance?
- 1491. I would bet on it.
- 1492. The former executive
has reason to bet on being sued,
- 1493. for major cigarette manufacturers...
- 1494. Yeah.
- 1495. You disappeared on me.
- 1496. - How long you staying?
- I disappeared on you?
- 1497. All right. What did you think?
- 1498. I think it was a disgrace.
- 1499. - Still no answer.
- Get me the manager's office.
- 1500. David. David, you've got a call
on line four.
- 1501. I think you better take it.
- 1502. This is David McDougal.
How can I help you?
- 1503. Mr. McDougal,
my name is Lowell Bergman.
- 1504. I'm a producer for 60 Minutes.
- 1505. I'm concerned for a friend of mine
who's staying at your hotel right now.
- 1506. Mr. Wigand?
- 1507. Mr. Wigand?
- 1508. I think I need to call the police.
He won't respond.
- 1509. No, no, don't call the police.
Just tell him I'm on the phone with you.
- 1510. My name is Lowell Bergman.
Just tell him that.
- 1511. Mr. Wigand, Mr. Bergman
is on the telephone.
- 1512. Did he hear you?
- 1513. You're breaking up. I can't hear you.
- 1514. What about now?
- 1515. - What?
- Hello? Can you hear me now?
- 1516. - What's happening?
- He doesn't seem to be listening.
- 1517. All right. Now listen to me.
I want you to tell him,
- 1518. in these words,
"Get on the fucking phone."
- 1519. I can't say that.
- 1520. No, you can. Tell him
to get on the fucking phone!
- 1521. He told me to tell you
to get on the fucking phone!
- 1522. You manipulated me into this.
- 1523. - That's bullshit, Jeff.
- You greased the rails.
- 1524. I greased the rails for a guy who wanted
to say "yes." I helped him to say "yes."
- 1525. That's all. You're not a robot, Jeff.
- 1526. All right? You got a mind
of your own, don't you?
- 1527. "Up to you, Jeffrey
- 1528. "That's the power you have, Jeffrey.
- 1529. "Vital inside information
the American public need to know."
- 1530. Lowell Bergman, the hotshot who never
met a source he couldn't turn around.
- 1531. I fought for you, and I still fight for you!
- 1532. You fought for me?
You manipulated me
- 1533. into where I am now, staring
at the Brown & Williamson building!
- 1534. It's all dark except the tenth floor.
That's the legal department.
- 1535. That's where they fuck with my life.
- 1536. Jeffrey, where you going with this?
- 1537. So, where you going?
- 1538. You are important
to a lot of people, Jeffrey.
- 1539. You think about that.
- 1540. You think about them.
- 1541. I'm running out of heroes, man.
- 1542. Guys like you are in short supply.
- 1543. Yeah, guys like you, too.
- 1544. Where are you, anyway?
- 1545. I'm on a leave of absence.
- 1546. - You try and have a good time.
- 1547. Yeah, I will.
- 1548. I'm Lowell Bergman.
I'm from 60 Minutes.
- 1549. You know, you take the 60 Minutes
out of that sentence,
- 1550. nobody returns your phone calls.
- 1551. Maybe Wigand's right.
Maybe I'm hooked.
- 1552. What am I hooked on?
- 1553. The rush of 60 Minutes?
- 1554. What the hell for? "Infotainment"!
- 1555. It's so fucking useless, all of it.
- 1556. So it's a big country with a free press.
You can go and work somewhere else.
- 1557. "Free press"? The press is free.
- 1558. For anyone who owns one.
Larry Tisch has a free press.
- 1559. - Get some perspective, Lowell.
- I got perspective.
- 1560. No, you do not.
- 1561. From my perspective,
- 1562. what's been going on and
what I've been doing is ridiculous.
- 1563. - It's half-measures.
- You're not listening.
- 1564. Really know what you're going to do
before you do it.
- 1565. I've got Richard Scruggs
on the phone.
- 1566. Patch him through.
- 1567. Well, Lowell,
you are not gonna believe this.
- 1568. The governor of Mississippi
is suing his own attorney general
- 1569. to abandon litigation
against Big Tobacco.
- 1570. Oh, good.
- 1571. But now that the version
without Jeff ran,
- 1572. what's the chance of getting
his interview on the air?
- 1573. - Hello?
- Yeah, I'm here.
- 1574. What chance is there of getting
Jeff's interview on the air?
- 1575. Less than great.
- 1576. I'd be lying to you if I did not tell you
- 1577. how important it was
in the court of public opinion.
- 1578. I'd be lying to you if I didn't tell you...
- 1579. I'm about out of moves, Dick.
- 1580. All right. See ya.
- 1581. Hi.
- 1582. So, what are you folks doing
here in Lincoln?
- 1583. - Geology survey.
- 1584. Yeah? Really?
- 1585. How about you?
- 1586. I work for CBS News.
- 1587. Oh, yeah?
- 1588. Just ran into two of your geologists.
- 1589. Geologists whose hands
aren't all chewed up.
- 1590. Lowell, do not screw this up.
- 1591. We are a week away from an arrest.
- 1592. So I'll hold it. And?
- 1593. We'll give you a heads-up
before we launch.
- 1594. - How long?
- Three hours.
- 1595. You got a deal.
- 1596. Like the testimony before
Congress of Dr. Wigand's former boss,
- 1597. Brown & Williamson's chief
executive officer, Thomas Sandefur.
- 1598. believe that nicotine is not addictive.
- 1599. believe Mr. Sandefur perjured himself
- 1600. because I watched those testimonies
- 1601. All of us did.
- 1602. mean,
there was this whole line of people,
- 1603. whole line of CEOs up there,
- 1604. Part of the reason I'm here is that I felt
- 1605. that their representation...
- 1606. more rapidly absorbed in the lung
- 1607. and therefore affect
the brain and central nervous system.
- 1608. - Hello?
- Jim, it's Lowell.
- 1609. - Hey, where are you?
- Remember that night at PJ's?
- 1610. You asked me if we were sitting
on something explosive.
- 1611. Well, we're not sitting on it.
- 1612. CBS Corporate leaned on CBS News,
which yanked an interview we did
- 1613. with a top-ranking tobacco scientist,
- 1614. They're trying to close down the story.
- 1615. You mean, 60 Minutes is letting
- 1616. decide what is or is not news?
- 1617. What's Wallace think about this?
Or Hewitt, or...
- 1618. How prominent?
What kind of placement?
- 1619. Oh, come on, Lowell. This is
The New York Times. I don't know.
- 1620. Well, until you do, all I can
tell you is what you already know.
- 1621. They will not air an interview.
- 1622. Call me back in 10.
- 1623. - Hello?
- Debbie, it's me.
- 1624. Hi. What time is it?
- 1625. Oh, it's late.
- 1626. That I know.
When are you coming back?
- 1627. I can't get out of here till mid-morning.
I'll be in tomorrow night.
- 1628. Listen, could you call a number for me?
It's in Mississippi.
- 1629. Okay. Hold on a second.
- 1630. What is it?
- 1631. - Hello?
- It's Lowell.
- 1632. All right, Lowell. Page one.
Editorial's interested. Let's talk.
- 1633. Here's how it works. You ask me
questions. I tell you if you're wrong.
- 1634. - Lowell, you sure you want to do this?
- 1635. Hey, it doesn't work,
you've burned your bridges, man.
- 1636. You ready?
- 1637. Okay. About this whistle-blower,
- 1638. did Mike and Don go along
with the corporate decision?
- 1639. - Lowell?
- Did I tell you you were wrong?
- 1640. No. I'm assuming the cave-in begins
- 1641. with the threat of litigation
from Big Tobacco.
- 1642. Are we talking...
- 1643. Are we talking
Brown & Williamson here?
- 1644. Did I get you up?
- 1645. No, I usually sit around my hotel room
dressed like this at 5:30 in the morning,
- 1646. sleepy look on my face.
- 1647. How many shows have we done? Huh?
- 1648. - Come on. How many?
- Oh, lots.
- 1649. That's right.
- 1650. But in all that time, Mike,
- 1651. did you ever get off a plane,
walk into a room
- 1652. and find that a source for a story
changed his mind?
- 1653. Lost his heart? Walked out on us?
- 1654. Not one fucking time.
You wanna know why?
- 1655. I see a rhetorical question
on the horizon.
- 1656. I'm gonna tell you why.
- 1657. Because when I tell someone
I'm gonna do something, I deliver.
- 1658. Oh, how fortunate I am to have
Lowell Bergman's moral tutelage
- 1659. to point me down the shining
path, to show me the way.
- 1660. - Give me a break.
- You give me a break.
- 1661. I never left a source
hung out to dry ever.
- 1662. Abandoned. Not till right fucking now.
- 1663. When I came on this job,
I came with my word intact.
- 1664. I'm gonna leave with my word intact.
Fuck the rules of the game!
- 1665. Hell, you're supposed
to know me, Mike.
- 1666. What the hell did you expect?
- 1667. You expect me to lie down?
- 1668. Back off? Or get over it?
- 1669. In the real world, when you get to where
I am, there are other considerations.
- 1670. Like what? Corporate responsibility?
- 1671. What, are we talking celebrity here?
- 1672. I'm not talking about celebrity,
vanity, CBS. I'm...
- 1673. I'm talking about
- 1674. when you're nearer the end
of your life than the beginning.
- 1675. And what do you think
you think about then? The future?
- 1676. "In the future, I'm gonna do this,
- 1677. What future? No.
- 1678. What you think is...
- 1679. "How will I be regarded in the end,
- 1680. "after I'm gone?"
- 1681. Oh, along the way,
I suppose I made some minor impact.
- 1682. I did Irangate, the Ayatollah, Malcolm X,
- 1683. Martin Luther King,
Saddam, Sadat, etc., etc.
- 1684. I showed them thieves in suits.
I spent a lifetime building all that.
- 1685. But history only remembers
most what you did last.
- 1686. And should that be fronting a segment
- 1687. that allowed a tobacco giant
to crash this network...
- 1688. Does it give someone
at my time of life pause?
- 1689. Yeah.
- 1690. Mike,
- 1691. in my...
- 1692. You and I have been doing this
- 1693. together for 14 years.
- 1694. This is today's New York Times.
- 1695. In it is the whole sordid story
- 1696. of what went on inside our shop.
- 1697. And in the editorial, it accuses us
- 1698. of betraying the legacy
of Edward R. Murrow.
- 1699. They conclude most of it
seems pretty unsubstantiated.
- 1700. You're full of shit, John.
- 1701. Yeah.
- 1702. Front page.
There's a picture of Wigand.
- 1703. Article's entitled, "Getting Personal."
- 1704. Byline to Suein Hwang
and Milo Geyelin.
- 1705. Wait. Hold on a second, Lowell.
- 1706. Yeah.
- 1707. Yeah, I'll see if I can find him.
- 1708. Yeah, hold on. Don's looking for you.
- 1709. Good.
- 1710. The subheading is
"Brown & Williamson
- 1711. "has a 500-page dossier
attacking chief critic."
- 1712. It quotes Richard Scruggs
calling it the worst kind
- 1713. of an organized smear campaign
against a whistle-blower.
- 1714. "A close look at the file
- 1715. "and independent research
by this newspaper
- 1716. "into its key claim indicates
that many of the serious allegations
- 1717. "against Mr. Wigand are backed by
scant or contradictory evidence."
- 1718. This news division
has been vilified
- 1719. in The New York Times,
in print, on television
- 1720. for caving to corporate interests.
- 1721. The New York Times
ran a blow-by-blow
- 1722. of what we talked about
behind closed doors.
- 1723. - You fucked us!
- No! You fucked you!
- 1724. Don't invert stuff.
- 1725. Big Tobacco tried to smear Wigand.
You bought it.
- 1726. The Wall Street Journal, here,
- 1727. not exactly a bastion
of anti-capitalist sentiment,
- 1728. refutes Big Tobacco's smear campaign
- 1729. as the lowest form
of character assassination.
- 1730. And now, even now, when every word
- 1731. of what Wigand has said
on our show is printed,
- 1732. the entire deposition
of his testimony in a court of law
- 1733. in the State of Mississippi,
- 1734. the cat totally out of the bag,
- 1735. you're still standing here debating.
- 1736. Don, what the hell else do you need?
- 1737. Mike, you tell him.
- 1738. You fucked up, Don.
- 1739. It's old news. Stick with me, like always.
We'll be okay.
- 1740. These things have
a half-life of 15 minutes.
- 1741. No, that's fame.
Fame has a 15-minute half-life.
- 1742. Infamy lasts a little longer.
- 1743. We caved. It's foolish.
It's simply dead wrong.
- 1744. Now this is what we're going to do.
We're going over to Black Rock...
- 1745. Okay? So let's get back to work.
Now, what we saw there
- 1746. was two potassium chlorate
- 1747. would yield two potassium
chloride, also a solid...
- 1748. They canceled the 6:00.
I don't know why.
- 1749. I'm on the 8:10. I should be home 9:30.
- 1750. I'll see you then. I love you. Bye.
- 1751. - Oh. Thanks, Dad.
- 1752. CBS management wouldn't
let us broadcast
- 1753. our original story and
our interview with Jeffrey Wigand
- 1754. because they were worried
about the possibility
- 1755. of a multi-billion dollar lawsuit
against us for tortious interference.
- 1756. But now things have changed.
- 1757. What Dr. Wigand told us
was that his former...
- 1758. This industry, in my opinion,
is an industry
- 1759. that has perpetrated the biggest fraud
on the American public in history.
- 1760. They've killed millions and millions of...
- 1761. You wish
you hadn't blown the whistle?
- 1762. Yeah, there are times
I wish I hadn't done it.
- 1763. There are times I feel compelled
to do it.
- 1764. If you'd asked me, would I do it again,
do I think it's worth it?
- 1765. Yeah, I think it's worth it.
- 1766. I promised you a three-hour heads up.
Here it is.
- 1767. Have a camera crew standing by
in Helena, Montana, on Tuesday,
- 1768. and I'll give you a three-hour head start.
- 1769. All right? By the way, that was
a hell of a good show tonight.
- 1770. - Thank you, Bill.
- 1771. You won.
- 1772. Yeah.
- 1773. What did I win?
- 1774. Reporting from CBS News
world headquarters in New York,
- 1775. good afternoon.
- 1776. There has been a major break in
the case of the so-called Unabomber.
- 1777. CBS News has learned
that a remote homesite
- 1778. outside of Lincoln, Montana,
- 1779. has been under FBI surveillance
for several weeks.
- 1780. Great, Lowell.
- 1781. Thanks for this.
- 1782. You know, we beat everybody.
ABC, NBC, CNN.
- 1783. Mike.
- 1784. That Canada story still interest you?
- 1785. Everything interests me.
- 1786. I quit, Mike.
- 1787. Bullshit.
- 1788. Come on. It all worked out.
- 1789. You came out okay in the end.
- 1790. I did?
- 1791. What do I tell a source
on the next tough story?
- 1792. "Hang in with us. You'll be fine. Maybe."
- 1793. No.
- 1794. What got broken here
doesn't go back together again.
- 1795. So, uh...