1. Okay.
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2. Where were
these found, guys?
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3. Green one on
the left side there,
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4. red one
on the right side.
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5. don't let
nobody come up here.
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6. The police in
west Memphis, Arkansas
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7. confirmed today that three young
boys were brutally murdered.
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8. The bodies of Weaver
elementary school second graders
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9. Steven branch, Christopher
Byers, and Michael Moore
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10. were pulled from
a shallow creek earlier today.
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11. There are rumors that the boys
may have been sexually mutilated
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12. the police say
that they do not yet
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13. have any suspects
in the case.
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14. The missing 8-year-old boys
were discovered
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15. in an area known as
Robin hood hills,
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16. a secluded patch of woods
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17. behind the
blue beacon truck wash
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18. along interstate 40
in west Memphis.
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19. Imagine all the evil
that you could think of,
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20. how someone
could be murdered
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21. and that's how these
three children died.
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22. No family should
have to go through this,
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23. unfortunately, it's gonna
happen again somewhere,
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24. another town,
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25. it's gonna happen again,
I'm sure,
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26. a lot of bad people
out there in the world.
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27. I don't know why these
three little boys were murdered,
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28. did they see something they
were not supposed to see?
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29. Did they hear things
they were not supposed to hear?
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30. I do not know that,
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31. I see no reason,
I see no motive
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32. for why these three
little boys were murdered.
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33. Live from KAIT 8 TV,
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34. good neighbors
you can turn to
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35. for news, weather
and sports.
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36. This is KAIT 8 news.
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37. Good evening,
I'm Diana Davis.
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38. And I'm Tony Brooks.
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39. In a statement given to police
obtained by a Memphis newspaper
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40. 17-year-old
Jessie Misskelley
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41. allegedly confesses
to watching two other suspects
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42. choke, rape,
and sexually mutilate
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43. three west Memphis
second graders.
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44. Jenna Newton reports.
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45. According to
the published report
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46. Misskelley told police
he watched 18-year-old
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47. Damien Echols,
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48. and 16-year-old
Jason Baldwin
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49. brutalize the children
with a club and a knife.
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50. The report says
Misskelley told police
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51. Echols and Baldwin
raped one of the boys
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52. and sexually mutilated another
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53. as part of a cult ritual.
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54. Misskelley is quoted as saying
he did not take part
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55. in the rape and mutilation
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56. but that he helped subdue
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57. one victim who tried to escape.
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58. At a press conference,
inspector Gary gitchell said
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59. the case against the accused
teens is very strong.
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60. One a scale of 1
to 10, how solid is the case?
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61. Eleven.
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62. It appears satanic worship
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63. may have played
a role in the murders.
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64. Since the very beginning
of the investigation
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65. people all around west Memphis
have come forward
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66. with stories
of satanic cults.
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67. Rev. Tommy Stacy's church
is down the street
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68. from where the bodies
were found.
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69. One year ago Damien Echols
told the church's youth minister
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70. he had a pact with the devil
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71. and he was going to hell.
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72. I do know that
my youth director
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73. talked to Damien extensively
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74. at the revival that we had
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75. and he told him
that he could not be saved.
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76. That he could not
give his heart to Jesus
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77. and my youth director then
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78. tried to get him
to take a Bible
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79. and he made the statement
that he could not take a Bible
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80. because if he did,
the rest of 'em would get him.
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81. In west Memphis,
Jenna Newton,
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82. KAIT 8 night news.
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83. Christopher never
hurt anybody.
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84. He had a gentle,
loving and giving heart.
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85. And they crucified him
in those woods,
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86. and they humiliated
his little body.
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87. They took
his little manhood
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88. before he even
knew what it was.
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89. And I hate 'em for it.
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90. I've never hated anybody
in my life.
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91. And I hate these three.
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92. And the mothers
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93. that bore them.
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94. I can't imagine...
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95. What was going
through Michael's mind.
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96. Was he...
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97. Calling for me?
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98. How long did they
leave him there tied up
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99. on that ditch bank before
they decided to kill him?
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100. What were they
doing to him?
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101. Was he conscious
or unconscious?
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102. Did he watch
the other two boys...
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103. Get cut?
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104. He was really being
killed by real monsters.
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105. On TV!
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106. Pam, first of all
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107. what are you holding
in your hand there?
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108. It's Stevie's
boy scout,
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109. I got it
back yesterday.
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110. And, I've been wearing it
around my head like this.
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111. Did he
like scouting?
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112. Oh, he loved it,
he loved it.
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113. He loved it.
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114. Do you blame
yourself for this?
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115. I have, I have,
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116. I have been
on a guilt trip about it
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117. but, it wasn't my fault
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118. I was at work.
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119. Have you contemplated
joining Stevie?
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120. Have I?
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121. Have you thought
about suicide?
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122. Have I?
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123. Uh, "suicide"?
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124. I felt like dying,
but not suicide, no,
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125. not suicide.
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126. Do you feel that the people
that did this were worshipping—
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127. Satan?
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128. Yes, I do.
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129. Why?
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130. Just look at the freaks.
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131. Just look at 'em.
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132. They look like punks.
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133. Little Jessie told me
he didn't do it,
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134. didn't have anything
to do with it, he wasn't there.
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135. I believe him.
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136. I think the cops
just can't find who done it...
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137. And they gotta
put it on somebody.
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138. I wanna tell the whole world
my son's innocent
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139. because I know
he is innocent.
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140. I know where he was
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141. and I know he's innocent
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142. and I wanna tell the world
and I want the world to know.
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143. This boy
is not capable
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144. of the crime
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145. that he has
been arrested for.
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146. I've seen him
take a little kitten
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147. and love it just like
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148. you'd love a little baby.
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149. It's like a nightmare,
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150. a nightmare that
you can't wake up from.
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151. Our son is innocent.
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152. We intend to prove it.
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153. "Yea, though I
walk through the valley
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154. "of the shadow of death
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155. "I shall fear no evil.
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156. "And I'm not
scared of the devil.
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157. "I gotta know
who my comforter is.
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158. Thou rod and thou staff
comfort me."
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159. And I thank you lord
for lettin' me be able
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160. to believe in that
with all my heart.
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161. I hope y'all really believe
in your master the Satan,
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162. that sleuthfoot,
devil himself,
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163. because he's not
gonna help ya.
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164. He's gonna laugh at ya,
mock at ya, and torture ya.
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165. He didn't need your help.
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166. The devil's got
all the devils he needs.
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167. The good lord said Lucifer,
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168. and a third of the angels
were cast from heaven.
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169. He didn't need them,
but he took their mind
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170. and he manipulated 'em,
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171. and they prayed to Satan
and they prayed to the devil
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172. and they had their satanic
worship services out here,
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173. and they had all types
of wild homosexual orgies
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174. I've been told,
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175. crazy things.
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176. To me,
this place as I stand
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177. is like hell on earth
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178. because I know
that three babies
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179. were killed right out here
were I stand.
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180. I know my son was castrated
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181. and possibly
laid there on that bank
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182. and bled to death.
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183. I know he was choked.
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184. I know one boy's head
was beat in beyond recognition.
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185. I know one little boy
was skinned
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186. almost like an animal,
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187. cut, had to shave his head,
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188. had all types
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189. of injures to the head
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190. where they just
kept beating him
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191. and poundin' on him,
and killin' him and killin' him
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192. it's like they enjoyed it,
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193. they killed them
two or three times.
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194. Jessie Misskelley Jr,
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195. Jason Baldwin,
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196. Damien Echols,
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197. I hope your master the devil
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198. does take you soon.
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199. I want you to
meet him real soon.
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200. And the day you die
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201. I'm gonna praise god
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202. and I make you
a promise,
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203. the day you die,
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204. every year on may 5th
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205. I'm gonna come
to your grave side,
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206. I'm gonna spit on you,
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207. I'm gonna curse
the day you were born,
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208. and I'm sure
while I'm standin' there
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209. I'm gonna have to have
other bodily functions
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210. let go upon your grave.
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211. I promise you
as god is my witness
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212. I'll visit all three
of your graves.
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213. The statement
Jessie gave to the police
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214. is a lie,
it's not true.
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215. I don't see why he would
do something like that
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216. to another person.
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217. I can see why they might think
I was in a cult
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218. 'cause I wear
Metallica t-shirts and stuff.
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219. But, I'm not in
nothin' like that.
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220. I couldn't kill an animal
or a person.
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221. I don't worship the devil
or anything like that.
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222. I worship god
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223. like every normal person
around here does.
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224. I got a favorite pet,
my pet iguana.
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225. Had her for a little
over a year now.
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226. I usually go fishin'
by myself,
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227. right in my backyard.
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228. Just go out there, and my
pet cat would be out there
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229. his name's Charlie.
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230. Whenever I catch a fish
I always give it to him.
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231. I didn't kill these
three little boys.
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232. I didn't kill
those three little boys.
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233. They were under
a lot of pressure
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234. they had to find somebody
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235. to lay this off on
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236. before people
started losin' their jobs.
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237. The public was
gettin' real upset
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238. seein' the cops
were incompetent,
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239. couldn't do their jobs,
they had to do something fast.
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240. And we were really
the obvious choice
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241. because we stood out
from everybody else.
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242. This all worked out
to their advantage.
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243. No one's gonna be saying
that you're stupid or you're dumb,
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244. or making fun of you,
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245. but the court's gonna be
very interested in determining
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246. exactly at what level
you were functioning,
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247. how well
you're able to read,
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248. how well you're able to write,
things of that nature.
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249. Does that make sense?
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250. Mm-hmm.
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251. So, if the court
determines that
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252. you are operating
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253. below average,
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254. then there's a possibility that
the court will not be allowed
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255. or the state
will not be allowed
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256. to impose
the death penalty against you,
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257. do you understand
what that means?
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258. We've got
about 10 weeks
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259. before the trial
comes up in January.
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260. Are you looking forward
to having the trial?
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261. A little bit.
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262. Not much.
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263. Hello?
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264. I have a collect
call, your name please.
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265. Jessie.
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266. Will you pay?
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267. Yes, ma'am.
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268. Thank you.
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269. Hey, son,
how ya doin'?
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270. Alright.
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271. That's good.
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272. My hand
still hurts.
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273. Your hand still hurts?
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274. Did you ever find out
if it was broke or not?
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275. No, I ain't
found out.
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276. I can move it.
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277. If you can move it,
it's not broke.
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278. It hurts.
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279. If you can move it,
it's not broke.
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280. It's gonna hurt a while 'cause
you bruised it pretty good.
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281. You just gotta learn
not to hit them walls
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282. hit somebody else.
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283. There was nobody
in my room to hit.
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284. Oh, okay.
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285. I didn't hit the wall,
I hit the commode.
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286. You "hit the commode"?
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287. Yeah, I hit it
on the side.
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288. I didn't even
put a dent in it either.
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289. That must be
a hard commode.
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290. I heard that.
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291. What time is everyone
gonna come up?
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292. I don't know.
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293. Y'all come up anytime,
'cause y'all be in here with me.
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294. Well, uh...
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295. We'll see you Saturday.
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296. They're gonna have to
go through the metal detector
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297. when you come through
the front door,
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298. I want everybody
to do that,
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299. they've got that portable thing
they can bring from little rock
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300. if you need it.
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301. Like the airport deal.
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302. We couldn't afford
no $3,000 metal detector.
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303. What I planned on doin'
was usin' two portables
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304. at this door,
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305. that's why I want everybody,
outside of lawyers,
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306. and I want them
to come through this door.
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307. There's a potential
of a problem area
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308. with the...
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309. Strong feelings
of the family,
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310. and that's
to be understood
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311. so, security, not only coming
in and out of the courtroom
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312. is a problem,
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313. but keeping the onlookers
and the family
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314. and people segregated
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315. from the accused
is another problem
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316. that you'll have, Darwin.
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317. My intention was
to bring this boy in
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318. before, long before court
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319. and have him in sight.
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320. Obviously I'm very
concerned about security.
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321. Simply because of
the death threats
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322. that have happened,
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323. but I don't wanna give
the jury the impression,
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324. if we have
20 state troopers
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325. and 50 county deputies,
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326. it's gonna give
the impression to the jury
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327. that my client is
a very dangerous person
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328. which he's not,
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329. and I don't want the jury
to get the wrong impression,
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330. I don't want there to be
such a circus in the courtroom
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331. with reporters and cameras
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332. that the jury forgets about
what they're here for
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333. and that is
to administer justice.
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334. We expect the
proof's going to show
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335. that this defendant confessed,
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336. that he was not coerced...
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337. We do not contend that the
proof's going to show
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338. that every word that
came out of his mouth
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339. was the truth.
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340. Ladies and
gentlemen of the jury
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341. this statement that
Mr. Misskelley gave
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342. the west Memphis
police department
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343. is a false story,
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344. the interrogation techniques
that were deployed against him
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345. at the time of his statement
on June the 3rd
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346. rendered him
completely incapable...
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347. They broke his will,
they scared him
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348. beyond all measures.
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349. The proof is going to show
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350. that this defendant
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351. was an accomplice
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352. to Damien Echols
and Jason Baldwin
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353. in the commission of these
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354. horrifying murders
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355. and we will ask you
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356. to return your
verdict of guilty
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357. on three counts
of capital murder.
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358. We don't know
what the truth is
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359. but when it really
gets down to it...
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360. His daddy and I are gonna
look him scare in the eyes
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361. and say, son,
did you do this?
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362. Was you even there?
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363. That's when
we will believe.
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364. If he told me he did it...
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365. Which I don't
believe he did,
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366. but if he told me
he did it...
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367. He'd have to do his time.
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368. Suffer the consequences.
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369. If he admits to this,
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370. he would be
strictly on his own.
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371. We wouldn't even send him a
dollar for a pack of cigarettes.
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372. No, you're
wrong there.
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373. Yes, we would.
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374. No, I would,
he's my son.
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375. I'll send him money.
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376. But, he will
have to do his time.
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377. I wouldn't
give him a nickel.
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378. He's my son.
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379. We can be
talkin' about—
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380. We could be
talking about my son.
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381. If my son did something
that horrible.
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382. No, I wouldn't
give him a nickel.
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383. Let him suffer.
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384. You can't turn
your blood away.
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385. I don't know how
you say you could,
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386. and we're gonna have
a problem over this.
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387. But, I know how it is
being up there in jail
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388. without anything.
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389. Well, that's
beside the point,
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390. if he's guilty
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391. if he's guilty of doing this
to these little boys.
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392. No.
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393. He's not.
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394. Well I'm saying
he's not too.
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395. But,
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396. if he happens to—
If it's proven.
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397. No, forget it, no.
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398. No.
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399. I don't believe
he did it.
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400. I'll never
believe he did it.
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401. This is to Jessie Jr.
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402. Today's his 18th birthday.
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403. And I haven't seen him
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404. I don't know where
to go see him at,
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405. I'm gonna sing
"happy birthday" to him.
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406. And don't smoke too much.
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407. Now, he's legal
to get 'em, ain't he?
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408. Yeah, he's
legal to smoke now.
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409. I may not be
his biological mother
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410. but giving birth
don't make a parent,
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411. and I've had him
since he was four...
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412. And it took me
about a year
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413. to assure that little boy
I was gonna be here for him,
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414. he wouldn't wanna
go to school
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415. he wouldn't
go outside and play
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416. because was afraid I wouldn't
be here when he came in
Copy !req
417. and when he was in kindergarten
if he'd come in
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418. and I happened not to be
where he can see me
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419. when he first come in
Copy !req
420. he would be hysterical
when I got to him.
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421. And...
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422. I've always known that...
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423. He was...
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424. He had a problem.
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425. And I,
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426. I've always been
real protective of him.
Copy !req
427. My mom sent me this one.
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428. "There are
all sorts of sons
Copy !req
429. "sons can be slouchy
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430. "sons can be sweet
Copy !req
431. "sons can be grouchy...
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432. "Sons can be neat
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433. "sons can be broke
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434. "sons can be well-to-do...
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435. But no son could ever be
loved more than you."
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436. And it says
"happy birthday".
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437. I cry a lot
when I'm in here
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438. 'cause I miss my family
and everything.
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439. And I just cry a lot.
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440. After that, I go to bed,
Copy !req
441. try to sleep.
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442. My name is Ella Sanders,
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443. my son was
Antonio Sanders,
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444. and he got killed,
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445. Halloween night, 1990.
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446. My name is Brenda mcclaine
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447. and my brother
was stabbed to death.
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448. I'm Brenda east
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449. and my son, Robert,
23 at the time
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450. was murdered
in 1990.
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451. My name's Anne wallen
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452. my daughter was
Sheila Dixon
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453. she was murdered
January the 12th of '91.
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454. I'm Wanda rany.
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455. My daughter was murdered,
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456. June the 27th,
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457. we think,
we're not sure,
Copy !req
458. they're calling it
a crime of passion,
Copy !req
459. they not only
throwed her out
Copy !req
460. and let her lay
two weeks,
Copy !req
461. he poured acid on her
Copy !req
462. to deteriorate her body.
Copy !req
463. I didn't
have the pleasure...
Copy !req
464. Of telling
my daughter good-bye.
Copy !req
465. Funeral was
closed casket...
Copy !req
466. And this is what
I had on the casket.
Copy !req
467. And it's still
very unreal to me.
Copy !req
468. When the telephone rings
I expect it to be her.
Copy !req
469. My name's Todd Moore.
Copy !req
470. My son was mark Moore,
Copy !req
471. he was murdered along with
Copy !req
472. Christopher Byers
and Steven branch
Copy !req
473. may 5th, 1993.
Copy !req
474. I cannot
describe the pain...
Copy !req
475. That my family
has went through
Copy !req
476. they didn't
just kill my son
Copy !req
477. they killed part of me.
Copy !req
478. They killed a part
of my wife,
Copy !req
479. her daughter.
Copy !req
480. I'm so frustrated
Copy !req
481. because it seems like
they have so much rights,
Copy !req
482. we have no rights,
Copy !req
483. they had in the paper
the other day,
Copy !req
484. now the taxpayers
in griton county
Copy !req
485. are gonna have to
buy them a suit
Copy !req
486. because they don't want
them to go into court
Copy !req
487. looking like
what they are, criminals.
Copy !req
488. They're in jail,
they should wear jail clothes.
Copy !req
489. Why do they need to have
Copy !req
490. a nice suit
bought by the county
Copy !req
491. so they
look presentable?
Copy !req
492. They don't want 'em
in shackles and chains.
Copy !req
493. You know, these are not
boys that murdered
Copy !req
494. our kids.
Copy !req
495. They stopped being boys
Copy !req
496. when they planned this,
Copy !req
497. and I sit there
and watch their parents
Copy !req
498. comin' out of courts, crying
Copy !req
499. talkin' about
their son's rights.
Copy !req
500. What about
our son's rights?
Copy !req
501. Where the hell was his rights
out on that ditch bank?
Copy !req
502. He had no rights,
Copy !req
503. he had the rights
to be brutally murdered?
Copy !req
504. To be beat to death,
an 8-year-old little boy?
Copy !req
505. Where was his rights?
Copy !req
506. I'm Diane Moore,
Michael Moore's mother,
Copy !req
507. last week in
flash market,
Copy !req
508. the echol's man was in there
staring me down.
Copy !req
509. Like it was my fault
that I had a child
Copy !req
510. that his child
could murder.
Copy !req
511. We seen
Copy !req
512. the people that are
supporting these people,
Copy !req
513. that look at us
Copy !req
514. like we're scum,
Copy !req
515. and these other people
are just...
Copy !req
516. The greatest thing
that they've ever known,
Copy !req
517. now they wanna
Copy !req
518. have 'em all
just dressed up
Copy !req
519. and act like
little choir boys in court.
Copy !req
520. Here you go, he didn't
do anything wrong.
Copy !req
521. My son didn't do anything wrong,
he's just a boy.
Copy !req
522. Now, on June the 3rd
Copy !req
523. did you have an assignment
to locate a particular person?
Copy !req
524. My assignment was to contact
Copy !req
525. Jessie Misskelley Jr.
Copy !req
526. At that time was
the defendant a suspect?
Copy !req
527. No, sir.
Copy !req
528. If he was not a suspect
Copy !req
529. why were you assigned
to contact him?
Copy !req
530. He was a friend with—
Copy !req
531. Friends with Damien Echols
Copy !req
532. and Jason Baldwin.
Copy !req
533. What, if anything,
did he tell you...
Copy !req
534. During this conversation
before the tape recording?
Copy !req
535. He told us
that he had attended
Copy !req
536. some satanic
cult-type meetings,
Copy !req
537. that boys,
Copy !req
538. along with girls
would attend,
Copy !req
539. there would be
Copy !req
540. sessions of sex,
Copy !req
541. orgies,
as he called them.
Copy !req
542. Uh, that...
Copy !req
543. Dogs and animals
Copy !req
544. had been killed
Copy !req
545. and in fact
those animals,
Copy !req
546. portions of them,
Copy !req
547. have been
eaten by the members.
Copy !req
548. I believe
there's angels on earth,
Copy !req
549. I believe there's
demons on earth.
Copy !req
550. And I believe as angels
try to help people,
Copy !req
551. I believe demons try to
possess and hurt people
Copy !req
552. to do the devil's will.
Copy !req
553. Just how angels
try to help people
Copy !req
554. to do god's will.
Copy !req
555. At this time mark
is going to sing a song
Copy !req
556. entitled,
"whatever it takes".
Copy !req
557. A beautiful song,
Copy !req
558. y'all listen to him
as he comes and shares.
Copy !req
559. I believe
the lord is gonna
Copy !req
560. direct me,
guide me and lead me
Copy !req
561. and we're gonna
give the glory to him.
Copy !req
562. There's no doubt
in your mind
Copy !req
563. that about 5:30 P.M.
Jessie was sittin'--
Copy !req
564. He was sittin'
right down here.
Copy !req
565. I had seen the police
over there twice.
Copy !req
566. I'd also seen
little Jessie over there
Copy !req
567. and they
talked to him.
Copy !req
568. Police officers
talked to him.
Copy !req
569. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
570. They had to find somebody
to pin this on.
Copy !req
571. This publicity
was getting out of hand.
Copy !req
572. Can you ask those folks inside
to step out for just a second?
Copy !req
573. I know that
I've talked to each of you,
Copy !req
574. if not directly,
indirectly,
Copy !req
575. we need to be
very, very careful
Copy !req
576. about who we talk to
Copy !req
577. with regard to the media
involved in this case.
Copy !req
578. There are several members
of the media who apparently
Copy !req
579. have no ethics
Copy !req
580. and have decided that they're
gonna do everything they can
Copy !req
581. to dig up mud
and sling mud,
Copy !req
582. it's not gonna do anything
but hurt Jessie
Copy !req
583. and his chances of
receiving a fair trial.
Copy !req
584. You, as friends of Jessie
and relatives of Jessie,
Copy !req
585. are prime targets for
these members of the press.
Copy !req
586. And if we just remember
the one rule is
Copy !req
587. don't talk to anybody, then we
won't have to worry about it.
Copy !req
588. Does that make sense?
Copy !req
589. So, again I caution you not to
talk to anybody in the press,
Copy !req
590. it's just
gonna hurt us, thanks.
Copy !req
591. One thing I like
about this right here,
Copy !req
592. black powder gun,
Copy !req
593. is they can't pull any type
of ballistics on it,
Copy !req
594. if by some chance you was
to shoot something with it,
Copy !req
595. every bullet rifles
through the chamber
Copy !req
596. just a little bit different.
Copy !req
597. So, they just can't pull
no ballistics off this one.
Copy !req
598. There's a few people I wouldn't
mind shooting with it.
Copy !req
599. But, hopefully the courts
and the justice system's
Copy !req
600. gonna take care of 'em.
Copy !req
601. If they reach prison,
they'll get took care of.
Copy !req
602. Todd, I could save
the state a lot of money.
Copy !req
603. If they just let me line
them three sonofaguns up,
Copy !req
604. I'd say this one here
is for you Jessie,
Copy !req
605. and we're gonna go
for the jug of water.
Copy !req
606. Oh, Jessie, I done blowed you
half in two, son!
Copy !req
607. This one here's
for you, Damien,
Copy !req
608. you that black circle
right in the middle.
Copy !req
609. Oh, you got hurt.
Copy !req
610. Damn, that sure
looked painful, didn't it?
Copy !req
611. Hey, Jason?
Copy !req
612. I want you to smile and
blow me a kiss for this one.
Copy !req
613. Let's go back
to Jessie.
Copy !req
614. I just wounded him,
Copy !req
615. I want him to bleed a little bit
like he made my baby bleed.
Copy !req
616. Oh, Jessie...
Copy !req
617. That breaks my heart
thinkin' about that scum.
Copy !req
618. 'Cause this right here's all
that needs to be done to him,
Copy !req
619. shot slowly,
Copy !req
620. with a real nice firearm.
Copy !req
621. And it ain't got
no consideration
Copy !req
622. or no feeling
who it's aimin' at,
Copy !req
623. just like they didn't
care about killing my baby.
Copy !req
624. I'd be happy with
lining them up.
Copy !req
625. I wouldn't have
no problem with it.
Copy !req
626. I think old Jessie's
still kickin' a little.
Copy !req
627. Put him out of his misery.
Copy !req
628. What kind of range
do we got in the courtroom?
Copy !req
629. Probably about
10 foot right here.
Copy !req
630. Go ahead and
waste old Jessie.
Copy !req
631. I don't see that bein'
much of a problem.
Copy !req
632. No, because
I can just see the scum.
Copy !req
633. That's good.
Copy !req
634. Go ahead,
he's wiggling,
Copy !req
635. alright,
Copy !req
636. I could live with that.
Copy !req
637. During the
course of these conversations
Copy !req
638. was anything
shown to the defendant?
Copy !req
639. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
640. Alright, what was
shown to him?
Copy !req
641. There was a picture that
insp. Gitchell showed him.
Copy !req
642. And what was
that a picture of?
Copy !req
643. One of the victims.
Copy !req
644. When I showed Jessie
this photograph,
Copy !req
645. he took it into his hand
Copy !req
646. and he just went back
in his chair like this,
Copy !req
647. and he just locked in on it,
Copy !req
648. fixed in
on the photograph,
Copy !req
649. and just kept staring at it
and staring at it.
Copy !req
650. Initially, Mr. Misskelley
Copy !req
651. denied any involvement
whatsoever in this, didn't he?
Copy !req
652. Yes, sir, he did.
Copy !req
653. Officer Ridge,
Copy !req
654. the photograph that was just
introduced into evidence,
Copy !req
655. depicting one of
the boy's bodies,
Copy !req
656. that was shown to Jessie?
Copy !req
657. Yes.
Copy !req
658. And this was
immediately prior to him
Copy !req
659. admitting and
telling you this story
Copy !req
660. about being present
when the boys were killed?
Copy !req
661. Shortly before,
yes, sir.
Copy !req
662. Why did you guys do that?
Copy !req
663. There had to be
a reason to do that.
Copy !req
664. There were times when
Jessie would not be talking,
Copy !req
665. he's getting slower
with information,
Copy !req
666. he's telling us things,
Copy !req
667. it's over and over,
the same thing.
Copy !req
668. Those techniques are used
Copy !req
669. to evoke a response.
Copy !req
670. You and insp.
Gitchell did these things
Copy !req
671. to evoke a response.
Copy !req
672. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
673. To evoke confession.
Copy !req
674. Evoke a response,
keep him talking.
Copy !req
675. Did it ever occur to you
Copy !req
676. that Mr. Misskelley
has a mental handicap?
Copy !req
677. No, sir, it didn't to me
on that date.
Copy !req
678. Did you have
any special training
Copy !req
679. dealing with people
with mental handicaps?
Copy !req
680. No, sir.
Copy !req
681. Did it ever occur to you
that this was gonna scare him,
Copy !req
682. showing him a
picture of a body?
Copy !req
683. That it would scare him?
Copy !req
684. I don't know,
I guess he's scared
Copy !req
685. into making a statement,
yes, sir.
Copy !req
686. I'm getting
nervous every day.
Copy !req
687. Why?
Copy !req
688. Why?
Copy !req
689. Oh, okay.
Copy !req
690. That's a stupid question.
Copy !req
691. Okay.
Copy !req
692. I can barely
hold this phone.
Copy !req
693. It's getting
closer and closer.
Copy !req
694. I don't wanna
even think about it.
Copy !req
695. I can imagine what
they're gonna do to me.
Copy !req
696. I can imagine.
Copy !req
697. But, I'm not gonna
think that though.
Copy !req
698. Think good thoughts,
while I'm on the phone.
Copy !req
699. Talk about something good
while I'm on the phone.
Copy !req
700. Hey, you're supposed to be
talking to me,
Copy !req
701. not your friends.
Copy !req
702. These people
make me mad.
Copy !req
703. You know it?
Copy !req
704. Uh-huh.
Copy !req
705. They get to go out and
screw people and I can't.
Copy !req
706. That's what y'all do,
I can't do that.
Copy !req
707. Well, you will later.
Copy !req
708. I will later?
How do you know?
Copy !req
709. I mean if I can
get out, we will.
Copy !req
710. If I don't get out,
we won't.
Copy !req
711. What I was gonna
ask you that Sunday,
Copy !req
712. that I dreamed about you.
Copy !req
713. You wouldn't believe
what I was dreaming.
Copy !req
714. It freaked me out.
Copy !req
715. Wanna hear it?
Copy !req
716. Huh?
Copy !req
717. Yeah.
Copy !req
718. We was having sex,
alright?
Copy !req
719. O.K.
Copy !req
720. We went to the bathroom,
we had sex.
Copy !req
721. When I was going out
the front door
Copy !req
722. we had sex right there.
Copy !req
723. We done it
out in the yard,
Copy !req
724. in front of everybody.
Copy !req
725. It freaked me out!
Copy !req
726. I woke up,
I was sweatin' bad.
Copy !req
727. I said I hope that dream
come true quick.
Copy !req
728. What are you gonna do
when you get off the phone?
Copy !req
729. Sneak back home.
Copy !req
730. Go back home?
Copy !req
731. I'm gonna go back home too,
when I get off the phone.
Copy !req
732. I wish you could.
Copy !req
733. I wish you could.
Copy !req
734. Yeah.
Copy !req
735. Well, my time's up, okay?
Copy !req
736. I gotta go, okay?
Copy !req
737. I love you.
Copy !req
738. I love you too.
Copy !req
739. Bye-bye.
Copy !req
740. Can you get
it in there?
Copy !req
741. Yeah.
Copy !req
742. I think those two
oughta do fine.
Copy !req
743. Yeah, I'm sure
they will be.
Copy !req
744. Yeah, this one's good.
Copy !req
745. This one came out.
Copy !req
746. O.K.
Copy !req
747. Big difference
from any other Christmas.
Copy !req
748. One I'll never forget.
Copy !req
749. It's the
first one without him.
Copy !req
750. I wish you could've
been here to hear me sing.
Copy !req
751. He liked to hear me sing.
Copy !req
752. This little Christmas tree
will stay there real well,
Copy !req
753. it's in there
tight enough,
Copy !req
754. I don't think the wind will
blow it over or anything.
Copy !req
755. C'mere and
kneel down here by me.
Copy !req
756. Oh, god, why did
you let this happen?
Copy !req
757. Please help us
through it.
Copy !req
758. God, please
help us through this.
Copy !req
759. This is an enlarged
photograph of the crime scene,
Copy !req
760. this is the ditch
Copy !req
761. where the bodies
were found,
Copy !req
762. Michael Moore was found
in this area at the bottom,
Copy !req
763. Steve branch was found
Copy !req
764. just behind
Copy !req
765. where these trees are
in the stream,
Copy !req
766. and Christopher Byers
was found just below,
Copy !req
767. that body right here.
Copy !req
768. This is exhibit 22,
Copy !req
769. which is the body
of Michael Moore,
Copy !req
770. after removing him
from the water.
Copy !req
771. The way he was found.
Copy !req
772. This is the body
of Steve branch,
Copy !req
773. Steve branch
is the one that had
Copy !req
774. the injures to his face.
Copy !req
775. Was it a
particular part of his face?
Copy !req
776. The left side.
Copy !req
777. This is state exhibit 24,
Copy !req
778. the body of
Christopher Byers.
Copy !req
779. What kind of
injures did Chris Byers have,
Copy !req
780. did you observe?
Copy !req
781. It looked as though
his penis had been removed.
Copy !req
782. Could you see the pictures
from where you were sitting?
Copy !req
783. Yeah, that's why
I had to leave.
Copy !req
784. Why?
Copy !req
785. Because I always—
Copy !req
786. Seeing my
boy the way he was,
Copy !req
787. I'll always have that picture
of what he looked like,
Copy !req
788. in my mind.
Copy !req
789. But, you never
knew until now.
Copy !req
790. You said early on
Copy !req
791. you really
didn't wanna know.
Copy !req
792. But, now you're hearing it,
Copy !req
793. is it a lot harder than what
you thought it was going to be?
Copy !req
794. It's a whole lot harder
than I thought it would be.
Copy !req
795. It like going back
to may 5th
Copy !req
796. and reliving
it all over again.
Copy !req
797. Inspector, let's
talk about the things
Copy !req
798. that Jessie told you that
are just absolutely incorrect,
Copy !req
799. on page 9
of his statement,
Copy !req
800. Jessie says that
Copy !req
801. the murders
took place around noon,
Copy !req
802. how did you know
that was incorrect?
Copy !req
803. Because the young boys
were still in school.
Copy !req
804. Did at any time when he was
telling you these things
Copy !req
805. that you knew
were incorrect,
Copy !req
806. did it ever occur to you
that what he was tellin' you
Copy !req
807. was false?
Copy !req
808. His entire story
was false?
Copy !req
809. In Jessie's case,
Copy !req
810. I feel he did tell us
a good bit of the truth
Copy !req
811. but then they also lessened
their activity in a statement,
Copy !req
812. that's just common,
Copy !req
813. at least in my
20 years career.
Copy !req
814. Is it common for the police
to simply ignore
Copy !req
815. these big obvious problems
and just assume,
Copy !req
816. that everything he's telling you
has gotta be correct?
Copy !req
817. Jessie simply
got confused.
Copy !req
818. You and I
can tell the cops
Copy !req
819. that we know
what our rights are,
Copy !req
820. basically go to hell,
Copy !req
821. we're not gonna
take this and walk out.
Copy !req
822. Jessie Misskelley
has no concept
Copy !req
823. of being able to
leave a police station,
Copy !req
824. the only thing
that the prosecution
Copy !req
825. has put on
against Jessie
Copy !req
826. is this wild story
that he told the police,
Copy !req
827. and I hope the fact that
there's no physical evidence
Copy !req
828. linking him
to the crime scene
Copy !req
829. is gonna have a lot
of impact on the jury,
Copy !req
830. we're talkin' about
reasonable doubt.
Copy !req
831. I think you need to deal with
lack of physical evidence,
Copy !req
832. not just to let them
get away with the fact
Copy !req
833. that they were in the water
and it all washed away.
Copy !req
834. A crime scene that clean
Copy !req
835. has to be purposely planned,
done that way.
Copy !req
836. The fact they
looked washed down
Copy !req
837. was not just
happenstance...
Copy !req
838. Somebody intentionally...
Copy !req
839. Purposefully...
Copy !req
840. With great cunning
and intelligence
Copy !req
841. tried to get rid of...
Copy !req
842. Every spot of blood, semen,
Copy !req
843. mud, footprint,
Copy !req
844. anything that
may have been there,
Copy !req
845. they purposefully
tried to get rid of all that.
Copy !req
846. An 18, 17,
and a 16-yr-old kid,
Copy !req
847. don't pull that off.
Copy !req
848. I think there's a lot of
professional killers
Copy !req
849. who don't leave it
this clean.
Copy !req
850. I really do
believe that if the jury
Copy !req
851. hears what
serial killers are like,
Copy !req
852. and what they do
and how they leave crime scenes,
Copy !req
853. the missing evidence,
the souvenirs,
Copy !req
854. I have know doubt there's
a serial killer going around,
Copy !req
855. that did these murders,
he may be in Idaho now,
Copy !req
856. but, I don't have
any doubt about it.
Copy !req
857. It is somebody who knew
what they were doing,
Copy !req
858. had done it before,
has probably done it since then,
Copy !req
859. or will definitely
do it again.
Copy !req
860. Are you aware
of any personalty traits
Copy !req
861. of people who are likely
to falsely confess?
Copy !req
862. Low I.Q.
Copy !req
863. Highly suggestible,
Copy !req
864. always attempting
to solve
Copy !req
865. the immediate
stress factor...
Copy !req
866. Get the interrogators
off my back
Copy !req
867. and just
let me go home...
Copy !req
868. Naively assumes
Copy !req
869. that they can all
straighten it out later on.
Copy !req
870. It's extremely difficult
Copy !req
871. for the average person
to believe...
Copy !req
872. That someone would confess
to a crime they didn't do,
Copy !req
873. what I didn't like
about this confession
Copy !req
874. is that most of it emanated
from questions right off the bat
Copy !req
875. without any narrative
Copy !req
876. of any length at all.
Copy !req
877. Without any descriptions
about feelings,
Copy !req
878. or conversations
or anything,
Copy !req
879. I just don't understand,
Copy !req
880. if he was involved
in this crime
Copy !req
881. how he made a mistake
on the time factor.
Copy !req
882. And the thing that really
bothers me is the ligature,
Copy !req
883. what was used
to tie up the victims,
Copy !req
884. he certainly knows
the difference
Copy !req
885. between shoe laces
and a rope,
Copy !req
886. that should've been a signal
Copy !req
887. that something
was radically wrong.
Copy !req
888. That's when the questions
should've been more probing
Copy !req
889. to determine whether or not
he was making it up
Copy !req
890. or giving
a valid confession.
Copy !req
891. Out of the 100 or more people
Copy !req
892. that y'all talked to,
Copy !req
893. are you aware of anybody
other then than the defendant,
Copy !req
894. who told you
Copy !req
895. one of the victims
Copy !req
896. that had their
genitals removed
Copy !req
897. and one of them had cuts
to the side of the face,
Copy !req
898. and there'd been
some grabbing of the ears?
Copy !req
899. There was no one else
that mentioned
Copy !req
900. those particular injuries,
Copy !req
901. and, you yourself,
Copy !req
902. you're pointing to the
wrong side of the cheek.
Copy !req
903. Was there any
kind of emotional response?
Copy !req
904. He had tears
coming down his eyes.
Copy !req
905. Had y'all yelled at him
Copy !req
906. or been mean to him,
Copy !req
907. or threatened him,
or promised him anything,
Copy !req
908. or any
of those things?
Copy !req
909. None of those things
happened whatsoever.
Copy !req
910. Doctor, can you
give us some examples
Copy !req
911. of the police being coercive,
leading or suggestive
Copy !req
912. during the course
of the interrogation?
Copy !req
913. Yes, I can,
Copy !req
914. perhaps the most
powerful example,
Copy !req
915. in my opinion,
Copy !req
916. is the example
of the eight revisiting
Copy !req
917. of the question of the time
Copy !req
918. at which
the killings occurred.
Copy !req
919. The first example
Copy !req
920. occurs on page three,
Copy !req
921. det. Ridge says, "alright,
when did you go with them?"
Copy !req
922. Mr. Misskelley says,
"that morning",
Copy !req
923. det. Ridge asks, "I'm not
saying when they called you,
Copy !req
924. "I'm saying
what time was it
Copy !req
925. that you were actually
there in the park?"
Copy !req
926. Mr. Misskelley says,
"about noon."
Copy !req
927. Det. Ridge now says,
"okay, was it
Copy !req
928. after school
had let out?"
Copy !req
929. This is immediately
after Jessie saying
Copy !req
930. "it's at noon",
Copy !req
931. he's now suggesting
it must be later
Copy !req
932. by saying, "is it
after school let out?"
Copy !req
933. Jessie says, "yes".
Copy !req
934. Det. Ridge follows up
Copy !req
935. with his victory,
Copy !req
936. on page 24,
Copy !req
937. and this time
det. Ridge says,
Copy !req
938. and I quote,
Copy !req
939. "okay, the night
Copy !req
940. "you were in the woods,
Copy !req
941. "had you all
Copy !req
942. been in the water?"
Copy !req
943. Jessie replies,
Copy !req
944. "yeah, we'd been
in the water,
Copy !req
945. "we were in it
that night
Copy !req
946. playing around in it."
Copy !req
947. This is the first time
Copy !req
948. in the record,
Copy !req
949. that it is directly
suggested to Jessie,
Copy !req
950. that the correct answer is
Copy !req
951. "this happened at night",
Copy !req
952. immediately upon
Copy !req
953. that being suggested,
Copy !req
954. Jessie...
Copy !req
955. Responds by accepting
Copy !req
956. and you he starts
to use the word "at night",
Copy !req
957. where he had never
used it before,
Copy !req
958. that is an influence tactic,
it is a way,
Copy !req
959. of getting someone
to accept something,
Copy !req
960. out of pressure
Copy !req
961. and out of suggestion.
Copy !req
962. But, that's one example,
Copy !req
963. there are many other examples
of manipulation
Copy !req
964. on important points
Copy !req
965. throughout this record.
Copy !req
966. Mr. Ofshe,
Copy !req
967. is your going rate
approximately $300 an hour?
Copy !req
968. No, that's not.
Copy !req
969. What is it?
Copy !req
970. My rate is a $150 an hour
for consultation,
Copy !req
971. and $300 an hour for time
spending in court
Copy !req
972. or in deposition.
Copy !req
973. So if you're initially
asked to evaluate a case,
Copy !req
974. you don't get
the $300 an hour
Copy !req
975. unless you give an opinion
that's consistent,
Copy !req
976. with what the person asked you
wants to hear.
Copy !req
977. They don't
call you as a witness,
Copy !req
978. you don't get your
$300 an hour, correct?
Copy !req
979. Incorrect.
Copy !req
980. I don't know what
Copy !req
981. the terminology is
in Berkeley California,
Copy !req
982. but...
Copy !req
983. When the
defendant identified
Copy !req
984. who it was
who was castrated,
Copy !req
985. when he indicated
Copy !req
986. that one of the boys
was cut in the face,
Copy !req
987. you don't know and
you can't give an opinion
Copy !req
988. that any of those questions
were coercive in nature?
Copy !req
989. No, I can't because the record
that we are dealing with
Copy !req
990. is very incomplete,
Copy !req
991. because this
part of the record
Copy !req
992. is preceded,
Copy !req
993. as everyone agrees...
Copy !req
994. By over two hours
Copy !req
995. of interrogation,
Copy !req
996. in which many subjects
were discussed,
Copy !req
997. for which
we have no record.
Copy !req
998. Jessie Misskelley,
Copy !req
999. didn't tell
the police anything
Copy !req
1000. that they
didn't already know.
Copy !req
1001. They led him him through
this entire taped statement.
Copy !req
1002. And ladies and gentlemen
of the jury,
Copy !req
1003. we don't know what happened
Copy !req
1004. before they turned
the tape recorder on.
Copy !req
1005. They didn't
videotape it,
Copy !req
1006. the officers didn't take notes
on all the questions,
Copy !req
1007. they testified to that.
Copy !req
1008. They even testified
that they couldn't remember
Copy !req
1009. some of the things
they asked him.
Copy !req
1010. How do we know
Copy !req
1011. what really happened?
Copy !req
1012. The defense,
through bringing in,
Copy !req
1013. so-called experts,
such as Mr. Ofshe,
Copy !req
1014. have tried
through smoke and mirrors
Copy !req
1015. to make it sound like,
Copy !req
1016. a person that confesses
to such a heinous crime,
Copy !req
1017. and admits
their involvement
Copy !req
1018. and gives you specific details
in the involvement,
Copy !req
1019. that's indicative
of someone,
Copy !req
1020. who was forced
or coerced to confess.
Copy !req
1021. Ladies and gentlemen
of the jury,
Copy !req
1022. my client,
little Jessie Misskelley,
Copy !req
1023. is an
innocent man.
Copy !req
1024. He's innocent.
Copy !req
1025. And I would ask you to
go back to that jury room,
Copy !req
1026. and bring back a verdict
that rings of justice,
Copy !req
1027. truth and justice,
Copy !req
1028. and I would ask you
to bring back a verdict
Copy !req
1029. that you can live with
for the rest of your life.
Copy !req
1030. See this picture?
Copy !req
1031. This is the Moore boy.
Copy !req
1032. This defendant won't look up,
Copy !req
1033. he won't look at you,
Copy !req
1034. but this
defendant's actions,
Copy !req
1035. you just
think about it,
Copy !req
1036. if this defendant
Copy !req
1037. does not chase down
Michael Moore...
Copy !req
1038. If he does not run through
the woods and chase him down
Copy !req
1039. and bring him back,
Copy !req
1040. Michael Moore lives.
Copy !req
1041. Michael Moore
gets to go home at night,
Copy !req
1042. his parents
get to be with him.
Copy !req
1043. But, because of
this defendant's actions...
Copy !req
1044. Because of what
Jessie Misskelley Jr. Did,
Copy !req
1045. Michael Moore's dead,
Copy !req
1046. Stevie branch is dead,
Copy !req
1047. and Chris Byers is dead,
Copy !req
1048. and there's no
getting around it.
Copy !req
1049. I think when you go back and
you apply your common sense
Copy !req
1050. and you do what's right,
Copy !req
1051. and you think about
the evidence in this case,
Copy !req
1052. you're gonna know
Copy !req
1053. that what
the evidence shows is,
Copy !req
1054. that this defendant
ran down Michael Moore,
Copy !req
1055. that this defendant was there,
Copy !req
1056. he was involved,
Copy !req
1057. and he's guilty
Copy !req
1058. of three counts
of capital murder.
Copy !req
1059. 3-2-1.
Copy !req
1060. The jury went out
at 4:20 this afternoon,
Copy !req
1061. they'll decide if
Jessie Misskelley is guilty
Copy !req
1062. in the deaths of
Christopher Byers,
Copy !req
1063. Michael Moore
and Steven branch.
Copy !req
1064. Misskelley is charged
with capital murder,
Copy !req
1065. and, if guilty,
could get the death penalty.
Copy !req
1066. Two other teen-agers
charged in the crime,
Copy !req
1067. will be tried later this month
in jonesboro.
Copy !req
1068. In corning,
Wayne Hoffman,
Copy !req
1069. A.R.N. News.
Copy !req
1070. Short but sweet.
Copy !req
1071. Can't you
twitch your nose
Copy !req
1072. and make them come back
with a "not guilty" verdict?
Copy !req
1073. If I could twitch my nose
and do that,
Copy !req
1074. I'd have been gone
a long time ago.
Copy !req
1075. There's still hope.
Copy !req
1076. I'm not
giving up, though.
Copy !req
1077. Don't ever!
Copy !req
1078. Don't get in there
and get mad and go off...
Copy !req
1079. They tell me, "how come he
always keeps his head down?"
Copy !req
1080. Because I was told
to keep my head down.
Copy !req
1081. If you'd raise up
and look around
Copy !req
1082. then, they'd be
saying something else.
Copy !req
1083. don't let it bother you.
Copy !req
1084. That's what
they're saying about Damien,
Copy !req
1085. always stretchin' his neck,
lookin' around.
Copy !req
1086. Damien's a good kid.
Copy !req
1087. I guess,
I don't know!
Copy !req
1088. I didn't realize how
much I loved him until this.
Copy !req
1089. I always loved him,
but this is just—
Copy !req
1090. Well, thanks a lot!
Copy !req
1091. You know
I always loved you,
Copy !req
1092. I'm just sayin'
I didn't realize how much!
Copy !req
1093. You're coming home.
Copy !req
1094. You gotta get out of here.
Copy !req
1095. Just say a prayer
when the jury comes out.
Copy !req
1096. 'Cause we'll
be sitting there
Copy !req
1097. sayin' one
Copy !req
1098. for you.
Copy !req
1099. We hope we can
carry you home.
Copy !req
1100. It's kind
of horrible.
Copy !req
1101. You gotta
learn to control it.
Copy !req
1102. Alright, ladies and
gentlemen in the audience,
Copy !req
1103. I am acutely aware that...
Copy !req
1104. You're...
Copy !req
1105. Feelings are all on edge,
Copy !req
1106. that there's a great deal
of emotion involved,
Copy !req
1107. but the court
cannot tolerate
Copy !req
1108. and will not tolerate,
Copy !req
1109. any verbal outbursts,
Copy !req
1110. any display of
emotion whatsoever,
Copy !req
1111. and I recognize that
that's difficult
Copy !req
1112. and that's why
I'm warning you in advance.
Copy !req
1113. The verdicts
read as follows,
Copy !req
1114. "we the jury find
Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr.
Copy !req
1115. "Guilty of
first degree murder
Copy !req
1116. "in the death
of Michael Moore,
Copy !req
1117. "we the jury find
Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr.
Copy !req
1118. "Guilty of
second degree murder
Copy !req
1119. "in the death
of Stevie branch,
Copy !req
1120. "we the jury find
Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr.
Copy !req
1121. "Guilty of
second degree murder
Copy !req
1122. "in the death
of Chris Byers,
Copy !req
1123. signed by
T.J. Williams, foreman."
Copy !req
1124. Alright, Mr. Misskelley,
Copy !req
1125. if you could come
around the front here
Copy !req
1126. and Dan,
Copy !req
1127. Mr. Misskelley, did you hear
the jury's finding
Copy !req
1128. and the reading of
the verdict in your case?
Copy !req
1129. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1130. Do you have any
legal reason or cause
Copy !req
1131. to tell the court
why sentence
Copy !req
1132. should not be
imposed at this time?
Copy !req
1133. I heard you but
Copy !req
1134. you need to answer out
a little bit louder.
Copy !req
1135. No, sir.
Copy !req
1136. Alright,
Copy !req
1137. is there anything
you wanna say
Copy !req
1138. before sentence
is imposed?
Copy !req
1139. You have a right to
make any statement
Copy !req
1140. you care to
at this time.
Copy !req
1141. Are you satisfied
with the service and advice
Copy !req
1142. of your attorneys
through this trial?
Copy !req
1143. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1144. Alright, based upon
the jury's verdict,
Copy !req
1145. finding you guilty
of first degree murder
Copy !req
1146. in the death
of Michael Moore,
Copy !req
1147. you'll be sentenced to the
Arkansas dept. Of corrections
Copy !req
1148. for a term of life,
Copy !req
1149. in the count involving
the death of Steven branch,
Copy !req
1150. the jury having found you guilty
of second degree murder,
Copy !req
1151. you'll be sentenced to an
additional term of 20 years,
Copy !req
1152. and in regard to
Copy !req
1153. the death
of Christopher Byers,
Copy !req
1154. the jury having found you guilty
of second degree murder,
Copy !req
1155. you will be sentenced to
an additional term of 20 years
Copy !req
1156. in the Arkansas dept.
Of corrections,
Copy !req
1157. that is you will receive
a life sentence plus 40 years.
Copy !req
1158. It's hard
to think of how
Copy !req
1159. it would've gone
any other way,
Copy !req
1160. but you can never
tell with a jury of 12,
Copy !req
1161. they could've found
a verdict of not guilty,
Copy !req
1162. and we had to sit there
and tell ourselves,
Copy !req
1163. "god Grant us the Serenity
Copy !req
1164. "to accept the things
we cannot change
Copy !req
1165. "the courage to
change the things we can
Copy !req
1166. and the wisdom
to know the difference."
Copy !req
1167. So we had to be willing
to accept what happened,
Copy !req
1168. and thankfully
the verdict went our way.
Copy !req
1169. There must
be mixed emotions
Copy !req
1170. because you had
the guilty verdict
Copy !req
1171. but you still have
the loss to deal with.
Copy !req
1172. This doesn't
change anything.
Copy !req
1173. Christopher's dead,
Copy !req
1174. and he was
tortured to death
Copy !req
1175. by three murdering bastards
Copy !req
1176. on a ditch bank,
Copy !req
1177. he was 8 years old.
Copy !req
1178. And guilty is guilty.
Copy !req
1179. And I hope the little sucker,
when he hits prison,
Copy !req
1180. they get his ass
right off the bat!
Copy !req
1181. Because he
deserves to be
Copy !req
1182. tortured and punished
Copy !req
1183. for the rest of his life
Copy !req
1184. for murdering three
8 year old children!
Copy !req
1185. How come you kept
your head down the whole time?
Copy !req
1186. Jessie, anything
you wanna say now?
Copy !req
1187. Did you
do it, Jessie?
Copy !req
1188. Did you do it, Jessie?
Copy !req
1189. How are you
feeling right now?
Copy !req
1190. Prison's not
a safe place.
Copy !req
1191. Jessie, sweetie.
Copy !req
1192. I'm gonna
mail him a skirt.
Copy !req
1193. One down two to go.
Copy !req
1194. Hopefully the same thing
will happen to the next two,
Copy !req
1195. and we'll get
the same verdict.
Copy !req
1196. They found
my son's testicles
Copy !req
1197. in a jar of alcohol
Copy !req
1198. in Damien Echols' house,
Copy !req
1199. with his fingerprints
on the jar.
Copy !req
1200. Now, how do you
dispute that?
Copy !req
1201. Some idiot started
a rumor saying that
Copy !req
1202. they found umm...
Copy !req
1203. Children's sexual parts
Copy !req
1204. under my bed
Copy !req
1205. or in my house.
Copy !req
1206. And there was no
body parts in my house.
Copy !req
1207. I think maybe the police
had something to do with it.
Copy !req
1208. If they can make us look bad
in front of the public,
Copy !req
1209. people are gonna kinda
have their minds made up,
Copy !req
1210. before anything
ever comes out.
Copy !req
1211. We wanna talk to you about
all this stuff in the paper
Copy !req
1212. about a deal
with Jessie.
Copy !req
1213. Right now we don't know
Copy !req
1214. what his situation is,
Copy !req
1215. although we think he is more
inclined to testify right now
Copy !req
1216. than he has been
at any point,
Copy !req
1217. up to now.
Copy !req
1218. The Friday that
Jessie was convicted,
Copy !req
1219. by questioning, the officers
that took him down
Copy !req
1220. inquired of him
what had really happened,
Copy !req
1221. apparently, Jessie, contrary
to somebody that was innocent,
Copy !req
1222. that would say things like,
"gee, I've just been convicted,
Copy !req
1223. I didn't do it,
what a terrible injustice",
Copy !req
1224. Jessie talked
all the way down there
Copy !req
1225. about how
he committed the crime,
Copy !req
1226. and specific details,
Copy !req
1227. unfortunately we need
his testimony real bad.
Copy !req
1228. If it was
a perfect world,
Copy !req
1229. we would take what we
have on Jessie and leave it,
Copy !req
1230. and we'd go and
get the other two,
Copy !req
1231. and get them
and be happy,
Copy !req
1232. but it's not,
Copy !req
1233. and, we need his testimony
Copy !req
1234. to be sure we get
convictions on the other two.
Copy !req
1235. I think we're gonna
Copy !req
1236. negotiate his
sentence down some
Copy !req
1237. in order to
get him to testify.
Copy !req
1238. He's not gonna
testify just
Copy !req
1239. out of the goodness
of his heart,
Copy !req
1240. the only way that
I think
Copy !req
1241. that he will
be willing to testify,
Copy !req
1242. is if the life sentence
is removed.
Copy !req
1243. I do wanna say,
all is not lost,
Copy !req
1244. if he doesn't testify,
Copy !req
1245. but the odds are
reduced significantly.
Copy !req
1246. We still got
some evidence.
Copy !req
1247. What we've got,
besides Jessie,
Copy !req
1248. we got...
Copy !req
1249. A fiber that was found on,
Copy !req
1250. it was found
on Stevie's shirt,
Copy !req
1251. that matched the fiber
Copy !req
1252. from Jason Baldwin's mother,
Copy !req
1253. which is called
secondary transfer.
Copy !req
1254. We've got
a fiber from a shirt,
Copy !req
1255. or a couple of fibers
from a shirt
Copy !req
1256. found at Echols' house,
Copy !req
1257. found...
Copy !req
1258. One of 'em was on
Michael's cub scout cap,
Copy !req
1259. another one
maybe on the shirt,
Copy !req
1260. that matched Damien's.
Copy !req
1261. Fiber evidence,
in my opinion,
Copy !req
1262. is better
than hair evidence,
Copy !req
1263. but they can't say
that it came from
Copy !req
1264. that particular garment
to exclusion of all others.
Copy !req
1265. We've got
Copy !req
1266. the hollingsworth clan
Copy !req
1267. that says they saw Damien
out on the service road,
Copy !req
1268. we've got some...
Copy !req
1269. Kids that say that
Copy !req
1270. they heard him
at a girl's softball game,
Copy !req
1271. overheard him say
that he killed the three boys
Copy !req
1272. and he was gonna
kill two more
Copy !req
1273. before he
turned himself in.
Copy !req
1274. They haven't scared them
off, like they did the other ones?
Copy !req
1275. No, not yet.
Copy !req
1276. We've got...
Copy !req
1277. A guy that was
in jail with Jason
Copy !req
1278. who says that
Jason made some
Copy !req
1279. incriminating
statements to him,
Copy !req
1280. now, there are some things
that they're gonna try to do
Copy !req
1281. to attack
this kid's credibility.
Copy !req
1282. Then we've got the knife
that was found
Copy !req
1283. in the lake
behind Jason's house,
Copy !req
1284. so, that's what we've got,
Copy !req
1285. but, that's all
basically we got.
Copy !req
1286. You asked what the odds were of
convicting them without Jessie
Copy !req
1287. and it's 50-50,
Copy !req
1288. not be good.
Copy !req
1289. The only way
he'll come up there
Copy !req
1290. and sit down
in that witness chair
Copy !req
1291. and testify,
Copy !req
1292. is if they cut him
a sweet deal,
Copy !req
1293. you take all the things that are
wrong with his statement
Copy !req
1294. and then add
to that recipe mix,
Copy !req
1295. that I'm talkin' now
because I got a sweet deal,
Copy !req
1296. and I'm gonna get out
in 10 years,
Copy !req
1297. hypothetically,
Copy !req
1298. I may get out
in 10 years.
Copy !req
1299. Heck, who wouldn't sing?
Copy !req
1300. You know
what I'm saying?
Copy !req
1301. Then, his evidence,
his statement,
Copy !req
1302. his whole thing
looks bad,
Copy !req
1303. if that's their best evidence,
and trust me, it is,
Copy !req
1304. if they can't use
that statement against you,
Copy !req
1305. they got nothin'.
Copy !req
1306. And this dog and pony show
is over.
Copy !req
1307. 'Morning.
Copy !req
1308. Are the rumor's
false about Jessie turning?
Copy !req
1309. Is it true that
Jessie's gonna testify
Copy !req
1310. against Damien
and Jason?
Copy !req
1311. That's false.
Copy !req
1312. I just left Jessie
at the jail
Copy !req
1313. and he told me that
he was not gonna testify,
Copy !req
1314. he didn't want to
get up there and lie,
Copy !req
1315. that the officers have been
working on him real hard,
Copy !req
1316. but, he wasn't
gonna listen to them,
Copy !req
1317. and his decision was final,
Copy !req
1318. but he can always
change his mind again,
Copy !req
1319. he has,
Copy !req
1320. he's a very confused
and scared kid,
Copy !req
1321. and the officers
have scared him to death.
Copy !req
1322. Last night I said, Jessie,
if you get up there and lie,
Copy !req
1323. I'm gonna be
in that courtroom,
Copy !req
1324. and you're gonna have to
sit there and tell that lie,
Copy !req
1325. when you know that I'm
sitting there listening to you,
Copy !req
1326. when you know
I know that you are lying.
Copy !req
1327. Damien,
are you in a cult?
Copy !req
1328. Are you worried about Jessie
testifying against you?
Copy !req
1329. In looking at young people
Copy !req
1330. involved in the occult,
Copy !req
1331. do you see any
particular type of dress?
Copy !req
1332. I have personally observed
Copy !req
1333. people wearing
Copy !req
1334. black finger nails,
Copy !req
1335. having their
hair painted black,
Copy !req
1336. wearing black t-shirts...
Copy !req
1337. Sometimes they will
tattoo themselves.
Copy !req
1338. Do you have an
opinion as to whether or not
Copy !req
1339. there are occult overtones,
Copy !req
1340. or evidence of
occult involvement
Copy !req
1341. in these
particular murders?
Copy !req
1342. Well, the date
being close to...
Copy !req
1343. Belting...
Copy !req
1344. A holiday, may 1,
Copy !req
1345. also...
Copy !req
1346. The day before
that is a holiday,
Copy !req
1347. then you go into
Copy !req
1348. the fact that some
Copy !req
1349. groups,
Copy !req
1350. occult, cult groups,
Copy !req
1351. will use a full moon.
Copy !req
1352. In several occult books,
Copy !req
1353. they will talk about
the life force of the blood.
Copy !req
1354. Usually the younger
the individual,
Copy !req
1355. the more pure it is.
Copy !req
1356. The more power
or force it has.
Copy !req
1357. A lot of times
they will take blood
Copy !req
1358. and store it
for other services,
Copy !req
1359. and other use,
Copy !req
1360. as well as consume it,
Copy !req
1361. or bathe in it.
Copy !req
1362. Now the...
Copy !req
1363. Item that's
drawn on the front,
Copy !req
1364. what is that?
Copy !req
1365. That is a pentagram,
Copy !req
1366. that happens to be
a "wiccan",
Copy !req
1367. or white witchcraft
pentagram.
Copy !req
1368. Now, if you open
the book to the front page.
Copy !req
1369. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1370. Now...
Copy !req
1371. Explain
what that is.
Copy !req
1372. That's confusion to me.
Copy !req
1373. The reason why is
we got a white witchcraft...
Copy !req
1374. "Wiccan" pentagram,
Copy !req
1375. then we have
upside-down crosses,
Copy !req
1376. which comes from another
type of a occultism.
Copy !req
1377. What type?
Copy !req
1378. That's black witchcraft.
Copy !req
1379. Is it "Wicca", satanism,
Copy !req
1380. or both?
Copy !req
1381. Both.
Copy !req
1382. And did you notice
anything in particular
Copy !req
1383. about the book?
Copy !req
1384. There's a chapter in here called
"rise of the devil"
Copy !req
1385. and...
Copy !req
1386. It is underlined in red.
Copy !req
1387. And there are a couple
of sentences in there,
Copy !req
1388. reference to
Copy !req
1389. blood,
Copy !req
1390. and it's life force.
Copy !req
1391. How were you accepted
into enrollment
Copy !req
1392. at Columbia pacific
university?
Copy !req
1393. I had to fill out
several series of papers
Copy !req
1394. including
all my education,
Copy !req
1395. background, experience.
Copy !req
1396. Did you ever fill out
a little flyer like this?
Copy !req
1397. No, sir.
Copy !req
1398. It says, "call toll-free
for information
Copy !req
1399. on how to become a doctor?"
Copy !req
1400. This is a mail order college,
isn't it?
Copy !req
1401. What classes did you take
Copy !req
1402. between 1980 and 1982
Copy !req
1403. to obtain
your master's degree?
Copy !req
1404. What classes?
Copy !req
1405. I testified—
Copy !req
1406. I'm asking you,
Copy !req
1407. what classes
did you take?
Copy !req
1408. I answered that
before, none.
Copy !req
1409. You did not
take any classes,
Copy !req
1410. between 1982 and 1984
Copy !req
1411. when you became a PH.d.
Copy !req
1412. What classes
did you take?
Copy !req
1413. None.
Copy !req
1414. None, o.K.
Copy !req
1415. Is it your opinion,
Copy !req
1416. and do you want
to tell this jury...
Copy !req
1417. That these crimes,
Copy !req
1418. were motivated
by occult beliefs?
Copy !req
1419. Yes.
Copy !req
1420. We're not trash,
Copy !req
1421. by no means,
Copy !req
1422. by son was born
in west Memphis,
Copy !req
1423. he was raised
in west Memphis,
Copy !req
1424. and for the life of me,
I cannot understand
Copy !req
1425. why people have got
this bad imagine of him.
Copy !req
1426. So what if he wore
a black trench coat?
Copy !req
1427. He's not the
only one that does.
Copy !req
1428. So what if he
wore black t-shirts,
Copy !req
1429. black pants?
Copy !req
1430. Johnny cash wears black,
doesn't he?
Copy !req
1431. I wear black,
Michelle wears black,
Copy !req
1432. domini wears black!
Copy !req
1433. We're all just
partial to black, I guess.
Copy !req
1434. I like black myself.
Copy !req
1435. And, I'm by no means
no devil worshiper,
Copy !req
1436. nor is he.
Copy !req
1437. He was goin' to school,
Copy !req
1438. he wanted to go to school
to be a priest,
Copy !req
1439. he was faithful
in the church.
Copy !req
1440. He looked into
Copy !req
1441. a little bit of "Wicca",
Copy !req
1442. but, he never
Copy !req
1443. went to it,
Copy !req
1444. and I think if people
looked into what "Wicca" is
Copy !req
1445. they would understand it
a little better.
Copy !req
1446. The only thing wiccans do,
Copy !req
1447. is worship the earth.
Copy !req
1448. People probably
think that I'm into satanism
Copy !req
1449. because usually what
people don't understand
Copy !req
1450. they try to destroy...
Copy !req
1451. Or ridicule.
Copy !req
1452. Try to make it
look bad or wrong.
Copy !req
1453. West Memphis is
pretty much like
Copy !req
1454. second Salem.
Copy !req
1455. Because everything
that happens here,
Copy !req
1456. no matter what it is,
Copy !req
1457. it's blamed on satanism.
Copy !req
1458. He's been
previously sworn.
Copy !req
1459. Correct.
Copy !req
1460. Please state
your name for the court.
Copy !req
1461. Damien Wayne Echols.
Copy !req
1462. Why did you
change your name?
Copy !req
1463. I was very involved
in the catholic church,
Copy !req
1464. and we were going over
different names of the saints,
Copy !req
1465. St. Michaels was
where I went to church,
Copy !req
1466. and we heard
about this guy
Copy !req
1467. from the Hawaiian islands,
Copy !req
1468. father Damien,
Copy !req
1469. that took care of lepers,
Copy !req
1470. until he finally caught
the disease himself and died.
Copy !req
1471. Was that the reason you
choose Damien as your first name?
Copy !req
1472. Yes, it is.
Copy !req
1473. Did the choosing
of the name "Damien"
Copy !req
1474. have anything
to do with any type of
Copy !req
1475. horror movies, satanism,
Copy !req
1476. cultism,
any of that nature?
Copy !req
1477. Nothing
whatsoever.
Copy !req
1478. After the time period
that you were really
Copy !req
1479. into the
catholic religion,
Copy !req
1480. did you start focusing
on another particular religion?
Copy !req
1481. "Wicca".
Copy !req
1482. Could you explain to the ladies
and gentlemen of the jury
Copy !req
1483. some principals about
the Wicca religion?
Copy !req
1484. It acknowledges a goddess
in a higher regard
Copy !req
1485. as a god,
Copy !req
1486. because people have always said
we are all god's children,
Copy !req
1487. and men cannot
have children.
Copy !req
1488. It's basically like
Copy !req
1489. a close involvement
with nature.
Copy !req
1490. Is there
a difference between
Copy !req
1491. the Wicca religion
and witchcraft?
Copy !req
1492. Wicca is also
called "witchcraft",
Copy !req
1493. the word "Wicca"
was bastardized,
Copy !req
1494. it originally
meant "wise one".
Copy !req
1495. Did the fact that you like
to wear black all the time,
Copy !req
1496. were you different
in other ways as well?
Copy !req
1497. Yes, I've never had
a lot of the same interests
Copy !req
1498. that other people have,
Copy !req
1499. like sports,
things like that,
Copy !req
1500. I've never been
into anything like that.
Copy !req
1501. Did it help you
deal with other people
Copy !req
1502. to have people
kind of stand-offish
Copy !req
1503. and sort of
back away from you?
Copy !req
1504. Yeah, it was like
a defense mechanism,
Copy !req
1505. it would make
people think like,
Copy !req
1506. well he's weird
I'm not gonna go around him,
Copy !req
1507. so, it kept people away.
Copy !req
1508. The state
introduced the book
Copy !req
1509. "never on a broomstick",
Copy !req
1510. are you familiar with
that particular book?
Copy !req
1511. Yes, I am.
Copy !req
1512. Where did you
get that book, Damien?
Copy !req
1513. At the library,
Copy !req
1514. all the books that they were
gettin' tired of
Copy !req
1515. or had for a long time,
Copy !req
1516. they had them
sittin' on a rack out front,
Copy !req
1517. that they were selling
for 10 cents each,
Copy !req
1518. so I got it.
Copy !req
1519. Did you underline any of
those portions in the book?
Copy !req
1520. That was done
when I got it,
Copy !req
1521. I think it was because somebody
had a report to do,
Copy !req
1522. 'cause all during the book
there's little notes,
Copy !req
1523. certain dates and stuff,
Copy !req
1524. like from the 1600's
Copy !req
1525. in the outside margin.
Copy !req
1526. So was that book kind of like
a history of witchcraft
Copy !req
1527. and how it's developed
over the ages?
Copy !req
1528. Yes.
Copy !req
1529. Are you familiar with
the contents of that notebook?
Copy !req
1530. Yes, I am.
Copy !req
1531. I noticed on the inside
of the front cover
Copy !req
1532. there appears to be
a couple of quotes there,
Copy !req
1533. could you read
each of those to the jury
Copy !req
1534. and tell them
where that came from?
Copy !req
1535. "Life is but
a walking shadow,
Copy !req
1536. "it is a tale
told by an idiot,
Copy !req
1537. full of sound and fury
signifying nothing."
Copy !req
1538. That's from a
"midsummer's night's dream",
Copy !req
1539. by William Shakespeare.
Copy !req
1540. "Pure black
looking clear,
Copy !req
1541. "my work is
soon done here,
Copy !req
1542. try getting back from me,
that which used to be."
Copy !req
1543. That is off
a Metallica tape,
Copy !req
1544. called "and justice for all",
Copy !req
1545. talks about how warped
the court systems are,
Copy !req
1546. and stuff like that.
Copy !req
1547. On may the 5th...
Copy !req
1548. Did you kill
Michael Moore?
Copy !req
1549. No, I did not.
Copy !req
1550. On may the 5th,
Copy !req
1551. did you kill
Stevie branch?
Copy !req
1552. No, I did not.
Copy !req
1553. On may the 5th,
Copy !req
1554. did you kill
Chris Byers?
Copy !req
1555. No, I did not.
Copy !req
1556. Have you ever participated
in any type of human sacrifice?
Copy !req
1557. No, I have not.
Copy !req
1558. 19 year old
Damien Echols
Copy !req
1559. admits he
stands out in a crowd.
Copy !req
1560. He says he loves
heavy metal music—
Copy !req
1561. 3-2-1...
Copy !req
1562. 19 year old
Damien Echols says—
Copy !req
1563. 3-2-1...
Copy !req
1564. 19 year old Damien Echols
admits he stands out in a crowd.
Copy !req
1565. He says he likes to
wear black most of the time,
Copy !req
1566. practices
the "Wicca" religion,
Copy !req
1567. and loves
heavy metal music,
Copy !req
1568. but he says he's
definitely not a killer.
Copy !req
1569. I believe they did it,
Copy !req
1570. and if they were to be
Copy !req
1571. set free on the street,
Copy !req
1572. then they would have to
look behind their back,
Copy !req
1573. watch behind their back,
Copy !req
1574. to see if Pam Hobbs
wouldn't follow 'em.
Copy !req
1575. Because I'm just
saying this as a human.
Copy !req
1576. I would,
Copy !req
1577. I believe I'd
try to kill them two,
Copy !req
1578. if they ever
walked the street,
Copy !req
1579. and I'm still alive.
Copy !req
1580. I believe
I'd be stalking them.
Copy !req
1581. To do to them...
Copy !req
1582. Probably shoot 'em,
and then cut 'em up.
Copy !req
1583. When I was down at the
courtroom and Damien walked past me,
Copy !req
1584. I wanted to go over there,
and take my hand
Copy !req
1585. and just
claw down his face,
Copy !req
1586. inflict any kind of pain,
Copy !req
1587. that I could
inflict on him.
Copy !req
1588. I know, eventually,
we're gonna have to forgive 'em,
Copy !req
1589. I understand that,
Copy !req
1590. but when it happens
in your home
Copy !req
1591. and you watch your wife
lose her mind,
Copy !req
1592. and whatever
happened to her,
Copy !req
1593. your home is tore apart
and busted up,
Copy !req
1594. I don't feel it's fair
Copy !req
1595. right now,
Copy !req
1596. for someone to ask me to forgive
the ones that caused it.
Copy !req
1597. It'll take some time,
Copy !req
1598. a long time,
Copy !req
1599. before I could
forgive 'em.
Copy !req
1600. You say that
it's gonna take time,
Copy !req
1601. we don't know
how much time we got,
Copy !req
1602. and we wouldn't be able
to see Stevie again,
Copy !req
1603. we have to
forgive in our heart,
Copy !req
1604. because the lord,
Copy !req
1605. forgave us,
Copy !req
1606. he forgave us,
Copy !req
1607. he shedded his blood
Copy !req
1608. for us.
Copy !req
1609. He shedded
his blood for them.
Copy !req
1610. And he just asked us
Copy !req
1611. to have a...
Copy !req
1612. Forgiving spirit.
Copy !req
1613. Now, I refuse,
Copy !req
1614. to serve sin and Satan.
Copy !req
1615. Because I'm gonna
see Stevie again,
Copy !req
1616. I'm gonna be
with Stevie again,
Copy !req
1617. I'm gonna be
with my mother again.
Copy !req
1618. I'm gonna be with
your grandmother,
Copy !req
1619. both of them.
Copy !req
1620. I'm gonna be with
all of my loved ones,
Copy !req
1621. that have passed on
and went to heaven.
Copy !req
1622. If you could speak
to the families...
Copy !req
1623. Of these kids
who think you did it,
Copy !req
1624. what would you
say to them?
Copy !req
1625. I don't know.
Copy !req
1626. Jason was my best friend,
Copy !req
1627. we did about
everything together.
Copy !req
1628. It was kind of like we even
lived together most of the time,
Copy !req
1629. stayed at
each others houses,
Copy !req
1630. wore each other's clothes.
Copy !req
1631. It was more like
we were brothers.
Copy !req
1632. We used to go out and
snake hunt all the time.
Copy !req
1633. Snakes and music
Copy !req
1634. were about our
whole life really.
Copy !req
1635. We were all the time
lookin' for new groups,
Copy !req
1636. that we would like.
Copy !req
1637. Our favorite
kinds of music
Copy !req
1638. were like slayer,
Metallica, megadeth.
Copy !req
1639. U2...
Copy !req
1640. Would we would do just about
everything together.
Copy !req
1641. I wanna draw your attention
Copy !req
1642. back to August
of last year,
Copy !req
1643. were you were in the craighead
juvenile detention facility?
Copy !req
1644. Yes, I was.
Copy !req
1645. And what were you
in there for at the time?
Copy !req
1646. Burglary.
Copy !req
1647. And, when
you were there,
Copy !req
1648. was there
a Jason Baldwin
Copy !req
1649. in the juvenile
detention facility
Copy !req
1650. at the same time?
Copy !req
1651. Yes.
Copy !req
1652. While you were in contact
with this Jason Baldwin,
Copy !req
1653. was there anything mentioned
about his involvement
Copy !req
1654. in the murders of the three
eight year olds?
Copy !req
1655. Yes, we were sitting there
playing spades
Copy !req
1656. and I wanted to get to know
everybody off in there,
Copy !req
1657. I don't know
what you'd call it,
Copy !req
1658. but, I just wanted
to get to know him,
Copy !req
1659. and I just straight out
asked him if he did it
Copy !req
1660. and he denied it
the first time.
Copy !req
1661. Did you have an occasion again
while you were there
Copy !req
1662. to ask him
was he involved
Copy !req
1663. in the murders of
the three eight year olds?
Copy !req
1664. Yes.
Copy !req
1665. I think it was
like the next day.
Copy !req
1666. I believe it was
the next day.
Copy !req
1667. And can you tell us
what was going on,
Copy !req
1668. what was happening
at the time that occurred?
Copy !req
1669. Me and Jason were
scrapin' up the cards,
Copy !req
1670. goin' to our cells for lunch,
Copy !req
1671. and I said, "just between
me and you, I won't say a word,
Copy !req
1672. did you do it?"
Copy !req
1673. And he said "yes",
and he went into detail.
Copy !req
1674. What did he tell you?
Copy !req
1675. He told me
Copy !req
1676. how he
dismembered the kid,
Copy !req
1677. or I don't know
exactly how many kids,
Copy !req
1678. he just said
he dismembered 'em,
Copy !req
1679. he sucked the blood
from the penis and scrotum,
Copy !req
1680. and put the balls
in his mouth.
Copy !req
1681. Now Michael,
Copy !req
1682. when was it
Copy !req
1683. that you...
Copy !req
1684. Came forward
with this information?
Copy !req
1685. I'm not really sure,
Copy !req
1686. I believe it was like
a couple of months later.
Copy !req
1687. What caused you
to come forward
Copy !req
1688. at that point in time,
Copy !req
1689. why did Michael Carson no longer
wanna stay uninvolved,
Copy !req
1690. why did you come forward
in February this year?
Copy !req
1691. 'Cause I saw
the family on TV,
Copy !req
1692. I saw how
broken-hearted they were
Copy !req
1693. about their
children being missing,
Copy !req
1694. and I got a soft heart,
I couldn't take it.
Copy !req
1695. Now, he tells you
this and then you're silent...
Copy !req
1696. From August,
Copy !req
1697. until February,
is that right?
Copy !req
1698. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1699. And in the second conversation
you've ever had
Copy !req
1700. with this young man
in his entire life
Copy !req
1701. he tells you
all this stuff?
Copy !req
1702. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1703. After he's had
one conversation with you.
Copy !req
1704. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1705. One day when I
was up here workin',
Copy !req
1706. the phone rings,
secretary says,
Copy !req
1707. you won't know who he is
but he needs to talk to you,
Copy !req
1708. I pick up the phone,
he says I'm Danny Williams,
Copy !req
1709. I'm embarrassed to tell you
what I need to tell you,
Copy !req
1710. he said but I work with
the juvenile department here,
Copy !req
1711. and I do drug
and alcohol counseling,
Copy !req
1712. and there's a guy
named Michael Carson
Copy !req
1713. who's gonna testify that
Copy !req
1714. Jason confessed
to him in jail
Copy !req
1715. and I know he's lying.
Copy !req
1716. I said,
what are you talkin' about?
Copy !req
1717. He said, well,
several months ago,
Copy !req
1718. Michael Carson was
Copy !req
1719. one of the kids
that I worked with,
Copy !req
1720. and...
Copy !req
1721. He and I had a conversation
where I told him
Copy !req
1722. that this Jason Baldwin
Copy !req
1723. had been accused of
killing three boys
Copy !req
1724. and sexually mutilating them.
Copy !req
1725. And basically,
Copy !req
1726. he gave Michael Carson
the details
Copy !req
1727. that he testified to
at the trial.
Copy !req
1728. At the time
Carson says nothing...
Copy !req
1729. And then Carson
later tells him,
Copy !req
1730. "hey, by the way Danny,
Copy !req
1731. "I'm tellin' the police
Copy !req
1732. that Jason
confessed to me",
Copy !req
1733. so he calls me up
and says no, no,
Copy !req
1734. this kid's a liar,
he's no good,
Copy !req
1735. I know he's lying,
Copy !req
1736. and the only reason
he's got this information
Copy !req
1737. is because
I gave it to him.
Copy !req
1738. The counselor of this kid
called the prosecution
Copy !req
1739. and told 'em
what a liar he was
Copy !req
1740. and the prosecution
still used the kid,
Copy !req
1741. and now they're tryin'
to keep out the fact
Copy !req
1742. the background
of the kid.
Copy !req
1743. Obviously we wanna
get that information out
Copy !req
1744. but the judge acts like he
might not let us use it at all.
Copy !req
1745. We should absolutely
be able to
Copy !req
1746. let that jury know
that he is
Copy !req
1747. LSD dependent,
Copy !req
1748. because it does effect
his ability to recall.
Copy !req
1749. The judge takes
all that away from us
Copy !req
1750. and says, the kid
looks pretty believable.
Copy !req
1751. Not only are they keeping out
the background of the kid
Copy !req
1752. when he testifies, so the jury
doesn't have all the eggs,
Copy !req
1753. but now they're
keeping out the counselor,
Copy !req
1754. who even
knows about this kid,
Copy !req
1755. who told him the story
in the first place,
Copy !req
1756. prior to him
ever telling the police.
Copy !req
1757. All that goes
to the credibility.
Copy !req
1758. I think that would've shown
the jury that he doesn't have
Copy !req
1759. quite that kind heart.
Copy !req
1760. That soft heart.
Copy !req
1761. Det. Allen, I
want to direct your attention
Copy !req
1762. to November
the 17th, 1993,
Copy !req
1763. were you asked to
Copy !req
1764. make contact with some
Copy !req
1765. property owners at
lakeshore trailer park,
Copy !req
1766. and also get with
Copy !req
1767. the Arkansas
state police dive team?
Copy !req
1768. Yes, sir I was.
Copy !req
1769. And after
a period of time of...
Copy !req
1770. Searching,
Copy !req
1771. do you know whether
any items were recovered?
Copy !req
1772. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1773. Mark for
identification purposes,
Copy !req
1774. the state's exhibit 77,
Copy !req
1775. and I ask if you
can identify that.
Copy !req
1776. Yes,
Copy !req
1777. I can identify this
by my...
Copy !req
1778. "11-17 of '93,
Copy !req
1779. m. Allen",
that I put here.
Copy !req
1780. Where did
you get the knife?
Copy !req
1781. I got this knife from
Copy !req
1782. the diver
with the state police.
Copy !req
1783. How long did
this search take?
Copy !req
1784. "How long?"
Copy !req
1785. From memory, I'm thinking,
maybe 10:30 A.M.
Copy !req
1786. Is the time they got suited up
and started to look.
Copy !req
1787. You quit at when?
Copy !req
1788. They located the...
Copy !req
1789. Knife,
Copy !req
1790. at 11:35 A.M.
Copy !req
1791. 11:30, 11:35.
Copy !req
1792. About an hour.
Copy !req
1793. About an hour—
Copy !req
1794. Are you telling this jury
Copy !req
1795. that this knife
is the murder weapon?
Copy !req
1796. Is that what
you're tellin' this jury?
Copy !req
1797. No, sir, I'm not
telling the jury that.
Copy !req
1798. Okay, now that
we understand that.
Copy !req
1799. What day were these
individuals charged?
Copy !req
1800. What did day did
y'all charge Damien Echols
Copy !req
1801. with this crime?
Copy !req
1802. Was it June
the third?
Copy !req
1803. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1804. And what day was it
that you were out there
Copy !req
1805. searching this lake?
Copy !req
1806. This was on
11-17 of '93.
Copy !req
1807. November 17 of 1993?
Copy !req
1808. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
1809. That's all.
Copy !req
1810. As long as they get an arrest,
they don't care.
Copy !req
1811. The damn system stinks!
Copy !req
1812. They're playing
with our lives,
Copy !req
1813. and there's nothing
right about it.
Copy !req
1814. It's kind of like
the Nazi's,
Copy !req
1815. they can just take
somebody's word
Copy !req
1816. and come in your house,
and take you away.
Copy !req
1817. And basically
that's what they did
Copy !req
1818. because of what
Jessie told them,
Copy !req
1819. even though it had all those
inconsistencies in it.
Copy !req
1820. If we had money,
do you think these 3 boys
Copy !req
1821. would've been picked up?
Copy !req
1822. They found people
they knew didn't have Ne
Copy !req
1823. the boys have been in
a little bit of trouble,
Copy !req
1824. they thought
we didn't care,
Copy !req
1825. they were wrong.
Copy !req
1826. They're bad wrong.
Copy !req
1827. I don't believe
that children
Copy !req
1828. could be
Copy !req
1829. that cold-blooded,
Copy !req
1830. as what happened
to those boys.
Copy !req
1831. On the state's exhibit, 67-a,
Copy !req
1832. it shows the...
Copy !req
1833. Hog-tying fashion,
Copy !req
1834. the hands were hog-tied,
Copy !req
1835. to the feet,
behind the back,
Copy !req
1836. and this is the photograph,
Copy !req
1837. showing the shoe laces...
Copy !req
1838. That injury, you say,
Copy !req
1839. is typical of a belt injury,
Copy !req
1840. the belt has
a little buckle,
Copy !req
1841. and that's one
that goes back and forth
Copy !req
1842. left to right,
that's the base of the latch.
Copy !req
1843. Here, this
red area here,
Copy !req
1844. this is the
shaft of the penis,
Copy !req
1845. and here is where
the scrotal sac
Copy !req
1846. and testes should be
and they're missing.
Copy !req
1847. So what we have
is the skin overlying the penis,
Copy !req
1848. the head of the penis,
Copy !req
1849. has been carved off,
it's gone, it's not there.
Copy !req
1850. In layman's language,
Copy !req
1851. that I understand,
Copy !req
1852. with respect,
Copy !req
1853. his penis has not
been cut off, has it?
Copy !req
1854. No, the skin has been
taken off the penis.
Copy !req
1855. And basically it would
take some skill
Copy !req
1856. and precision
Copy !req
1857. to do that,
wouldn't it?
Copy !req
1858. I would think so.
Copy !req
1859. If this was
to be done,
Copy !req
1860. this dissection,
Copy !req
1861. where the skin is cut off,
Copy !req
1862. that would take
a very sharp instrument
Copy !req
1863. would it not?
Copy !req
1864. I think it would.
Copy !req
1865. Such as a razor.
Copy !req
1866. Or a sharp knife.
Copy !req
1867. A very sharp knife,
Copy !req
1868. doctor, if you
were to do this,
Copy !req
1869. with the skill and precision
and knowledge that you take,
Copy !req
1870. how long would it
take you to do that?
Copy !req
1871. It would
take me some time.
Copy !req
1872. It would take you
longer than 5 to 10 minutes?
Copy !req
1873. I would think so.
Copy !req
1874. And that's
in your lab.
Copy !req
1875. I would think so.
Copy !req
1876. With a scalpel.
Copy !req
1877. Is that correct?
Copy !req
1878. That's correct.
Copy !req
1879. Now, doctor if we
added to the equation
Copy !req
1880. that you were in the dark,
Copy !req
1881. could you do this
in the dark?
Copy !req
1882. You, doctor, could you
do it in the dark?
Copy !req
1883. It'd be difficult.
Copy !req
1884. Could you do this
in the water?
Copy !req
1885. You, doctor, could you
do this in the water?
Copy !req
1886. I think it would be
very difficult to do.
Copy !req
1887. If you were doing it
in the dark,
Copy !req
1888. in the water,
Copy !req
1889. with mosquitoes
all around you.
Copy !req
1890. Would that make it even
much more difficult?
Copy !req
1891. I would think so.
Copy !req
1892. It would be
a very tedious task for you,
Copy !req
1893. a skilled pathologist.
Copy !req
1894. It would.
Copy !req
1895. Now, isn't
it true, doctor,
Copy !req
1896. that people have about
5 pints of blood?
Copy !req
1897. A little more
than that, yes.
Copy !req
1898. Okay, now,
Copy !req
1899. if I poured out
five pints of blood
Copy !req
1900. out here
on on the floor,
Copy !req
1901. it would make a big mess,
wouldn't it?
Copy !req
1902. Yes.
Copy !req
1903. And it would be
almost impossible to clean up.
Copy !req
1904. You can do it but,
Copy !req
1905. not very easily.
Copy !req
1906. It's not easy
to clean blood.
Copy !req
1907. Does blood
soak into the ground?
Copy !req
1908. Yes, it does.
Copy !req
1909. Doctor, with this homicide,
Copy !req
1910. we're talking
about here today,
Copy !req
1911. would you
agree with me that,
Copy !req
1912. this could've happened
in one of three ways,
Copy !req
1913. these injuries
could've happened in the water,
Copy !req
1914. these injures
could've happened on the bank,
Copy !req
1915. or could've happened
somewhere else.
Copy !req
1916. Would you agree with me those
are the three possibilities
Copy !req
1917. of how this
could've happened?
Copy !req
1918. Yes.
Copy !req
1919. Now, with your knowledge of the
amount of blood that was lost,
Copy !req
1920. from, not only Chris Byers,
but these other boys,
Copy !req
1921. they're gonna bleed
as well, won't they?
Copy !req
1922. Oh, yes.
Copy !req
1923. Do you have an opinion
as to whether or not
Copy !req
1924. you could clean up
that amount of blood?
Copy !req
1925. At a scene,
in the dark?
Copy !req
1926. Do you have an
opinion as to that?
Copy !req
1927. I think it would be
quite difficult to do,
Copy !req
1928. to have...
Copy !req
1929. Injuries of this nature,
Copy !req
1930. without having any blood...
Copy !req
1931. I would question that
about the blood.
Copy !req
1932. Unless it happened
in the water
Copy !req
1933. or it happened
some other place.
Copy !req
1934. And you again, doctor,
stated that you couldn't
Copy !req
1935. do this
in the water?
Copy !req
1936. Personally,
I don't think I could.
Copy !req
1937. I don't get off
on hurtin' people,
Copy !req
1938. or inflicting pain
Copy !req
1939. on the rest
of the human race,
Copy !req
1940. or just...
Copy !req
1941. Causing destruction
for the purpose of destruction.
Copy !req
1942. I've probably been in
Copy !req
1943. one or two fights
my entire life.
Copy !req
1944. And especially a child...
Copy !req
1945. Because they didn't
do anything to deserve
Copy !req
1946. what they got.
Copy !req
1947. And I believe whatever you do
to someone else,
Copy !req
1948. whether it's good or bad,
Copy !req
1949. is eventually gonna
come back around to you.
Copy !req
1950. Even the person
who did this,
Copy !req
1951. if they're not
caught and punished,
Copy !req
1952. something will happen
in their life
Copy !req
1953. where they
will be punished.
Copy !req
1954. People kept tellin'
me not to go out with Damien
Copy !req
1955. because he was like
some kind of devil worshiper,
Copy !req
1956. and I met him
in Wal-Mart...
Copy !req
1957. And he followed me around
like a puppy dog...
Copy !req
1958. And we started talking
and he was real sweet,
Copy !req
1959. not like everybody else was
making him out to be,
Copy !req
1960. that night we
starting going out,
Copy !req
1961. and it was like a month,
Copy !req
1962. and he called me up
on the telephone
Copy !req
1963. at my dad's
girlfriend's house
Copy !req
1964. and he goes,
"will you marry me?"
Copy !req
1965. And I'm like, "what?"
Copy !req
1966. And he goes,
"will you marry me?"
Copy !req
1967. I said, "can you repeat that
one more time?"
Copy !req
1968. And he goes,
"will you marry me",
Copy !req
1969. I said, "yeah",
Copy !req
1970. and when I got pregnant
Copy !req
1971. I had this big picture
painted in my mind,
Copy !req
1972. Damien's gonna be there,
Copy !req
1973. and I get to yell at him
when I have the baby.
Copy !req
1974. And instead
I was yelling at her.
Copy !req
1975. I miss him so much.
Copy !req
1976. And he hasn't yet
to see the baby,
Copy !req
1977. they won't let him
touch the baby.
Copy !req
1978. It makes me so pissed off.
Copy !req
1979. I felt different
when he was born it was—
Copy !req
1980. It made me feel like,
Copy !req
1981. I guess just
real good inside...
Copy !req
1982. To think that I gave life
Copy !req
1983. to another human being.
Copy !req
1984. Something completely
separate from me
Copy !req
1985. but still part of me.
Copy !req
1986. I just hope that I'll be there
when he grows up.
Copy !req
1987. To watch him.
Copy !req
1988. You are
familiar with a fellow named
Copy !req
1989. aleister Crowley?
Copy !req
1990. I know who he is.
Copy !req
1991. He's the guy
who kindly professes,
Copy !req
1992. he's a noted author
Copy !req
1993. in the field
of satanic worship.
Copy !req
1994. I know he is
Copy !req
1995. but I never saw
any of his books, personally.
Copy !req
1996. You're not really much
of a follower of his?
Copy !req
1997. I would've read 'em
if I would've saw 'em,
Copy !req
1998. but, I just never...
Copy !req
1999. But, Aleister Crowley,
Copy !req
2000. is a guy that
based on his writings,
Copy !req
2001. believes in human sacrifice,
doesn't he?
Copy !req
2002. He also believed
he was god, though.
Copy !req
2003. And he also
Copy !req
2004. had writings
that indicated
Copy !req
2005. that children
were the best type
Copy !req
2006. of human sacrifice,
correct?
Copy !req
2007. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2008. But, Aleister
Crowley doesn't have any
Copy !req
2009. particular
significance to you?
Copy !req
2010. I know who he is,
Copy !req
2011. I've read
a little bit about him,
Copy !req
2012. but, I never read
anything by him.
Copy !req
2013. Let me show you
Copy !req
2014. a copy of documents,
Copy !req
2015. do you recognize that?
Copy !req
2016. Yes.
Copy !req
2017. What is that?
Copy !req
2018. It was this paper I had
on different alphabets
Copy !req
2019. for like translations,
Copy !req
2020. where you can write things
that nobody could read,
Copy !req
2021. and this was
one of the forms.
Copy !req
2022. Oh, okay,
Copy !req
2023. where'd you
have that at?
Copy !req
2024. When did you
write those things out?
Copy !req
2025. Some time before
I was arrested I guess.
Copy !req
2026. Are you sure that
you hadn't done those
Copy !req
2027. since you were arrested while
you been staying in jail?
Copy !req
2028. I don't know,
I might have.
Copy !req
2029. Who's names are
written on that document?
Copy !req
2030. Mine, Jason's,
Copy !req
2031. my son's,
Copy !req
2032. one that says
Aleister Crowley—
Copy !req
2033. Wait, wait!
Who?
Copy !req
2034. Aleister Crowley.
Copy !req
2035. This is a document that you've
written while you've been
Copy !req
2036. waiting in jail
for trial, right?
Copy !req
2037. If you say so.
Copy !req
2038. You wrote it,
it's your writing?
Copy !req
2039. Mm-hmm.
Copy !req
2040. Do you recall
when you wrote it?
Copy !req
2041. Not really.
Copy !req
2042. What I'm gonna ask you is,
Copy !req
2043. that this Damien Echols,
your son,
Copy !req
2044. he wasn't born until after you
were placed in jail, correct?
Copy !req
2045. Yes.
Copy !req
2046. So if you've got his name
listed on this document,
Copy !req
2047. then this document had to be
generated after he was born?
Copy !req
2048. Yes.
Copy !req
2049. So this is something
you've written
Copy !req
2050. since you've been
sitting in here in jail
Copy !req
2051. waiting for trial.
Copy !req
2052. Yes.
Copy !req
2053. And what you were doing
was writing out various names
Copy !req
2054. in different types
of alphabets, correct?
Copy !req
2055. From the way it looks here
I was practicing,
Copy !req
2056. trying to
memorize them.
Copy !req
2057. And one of the names that you
picked out to write about
Copy !req
2058. was this fella named
Aleister crowely, correct?
Copy !req
2059. Mm-hmm.
Copy !req
2060. Is that just
a total coincidence,
Copy !req
2061. you just pulled his name
out of the air?
Copy !req
2062. No, it's the same book
that I had
Copy !req
2063. with the different alphabets
Copy !req
2064. and it also had stuff
about him in there.
Copy !req
2065. Did you have the book out at
the time you were doing this?
Copy !req
2066. This was just from what
I remembered myself,
Copy !req
2067. I was practicing,
trying to memorize,
Copy !req
2068. get it all in my head.
Copy !req
2069. So you were going over it
and working on it,
Copy !req
2070. and at that point in time,
Copy !req
2071. you write all this
down from memory?
Copy !req
2072. Mm-hmm.
Copy !req
2073. The people
that are listed here,
Copy !req
2074. you got your name
on here, right?
Copy !req
2075. Mm-hmm.
Copy !req
2076. And Jason Baldwin,
which is your best friend, right?
Copy !req
2077. And then you got
Damien Seth Echols,
Copy !req
2078. that's your son?
Copy !req
2079. Yes, it is.
Copy !req
2080. And the only
other name on this document,
Copy !req
2081. besides yourself,
your best friend, and your son,
Copy !req
2082. is Aleister Crowley,
correct?
Copy !req
2083. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2084. I believe this witness has
Copy !req
2085. requested not
to be photographed.
Copy !req
2086. That's correct,
your honor.
Copy !req
2087. Would you state your name
for the jury?
Copy !req
2088. Christi vanbickle.
Copy !req
2089. Do like you just did
Copy !req
2090. and speak up
best you can, okay?
Copy !req
2091. Are you nervous?
Copy !req
2092. Yes.
Copy !req
2093. Did you hear somebody
say something
Copy !req
2094. about the murder
of the three little boys?
Copy !req
2095. Yes, I heard Damien Echols say
Copy !req
2096. that he killed
the three boys.
Copy !req
2097. Where were you,
was he sayin' that to you,
Copy !req
2098. what were you doin'?
Copy !req
2099. I was walking
by with my friend.
Copy !req
2100. Christi,
I'm Scott Davidson,
Copy !req
2101. I've got a couple of questions
to ask you too, okay?
Copy !req
2102. First of all, do you
remember what day this was
Copy !req
2103. that you heard this?
Copy !req
2104. No, sir.
Copy !req
2105. That's the first time you'd
ever seen him in your life?
Copy !req
2106. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2107. What did he
say before he said
Copy !req
2108. he killed
those three boys,
Copy !req
2109. what did he
say before that?
Copy !req
2110. I don't know.
Copy !req
2111. What did
he say after that?
Copy !req
2112. I don't know.
Copy !req
2113. And how close
were you to him?
Copy !req
2114. I wasn't close.
Copy !req
2115. Did he scream it?
Copy !req
2116. I don't know.
Copy !req
2117. Did he yell it?
Copy !req
2118. I don't know.
Copy !req
2119. Call Jody medford.
Copy !req
2120. Again, this witness
Copy !req
2121. has requested
not to be photographed.
Copy !req
2122. Jody, I want to
direct your attention to
Copy !req
2123. may of 1993,
after the murders
Copy !req
2124. of the three little boys.
Copy !req
2125. Did you have occasion
to be at the softball field
Copy !req
2126. and hear a comment
in regard to the murders?
Copy !req
2127. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2128. Tell the jury first,
Copy !req
2129. what you heard.
Copy !req
2130. He said "I
killed the little boys
Copy !req
2131. "and before I turn myself in
I'm gonna kill two more,
Copy !req
2132. and I already have
one of 'em picked out."
Copy !req
2133. You didn't recognize
anybody else that was with him?
Copy !req
2134. I saw Jason Baldwin there.
Copy !req
2135. Had you heard people talking
about Damien before this?
Copy !req
2136. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2137. Did you think,
Copy !req
2138. do you think he was
kind of weird or something?
Copy !req
2139. Yes, sir 'cause he was
dressed all in black
Copy !req
2140. and his hair was
jet black and long
Copy !req
2141. and shaved on the side.
Copy !req
2142. Two teen-age girls
took the stand this morning
Copy !req
2143. and they said they heard
Damien Echols
Copy !req
2144. confess to the murders of three
8 year old boys last may,
Copy !req
2145. one of the girls said
she overheard Damien Echols say,
Copy !req
2146. "I killed the three boys,
and I'm going to kill two more,
Copy !req
2147. I already have
one picked out."
Copy !req
2148. Later in the afternoon,
Copy !req
2149. when the defense began
presenting it's witnesses,
Copy !req
2150. Damien Echols, himself
took the stand,
Copy !req
2151. he said he thought
the girls were lying
Copy !req
2152. and that they were
making up those statements.
Copy !req
2153. He also said he did not
practice satanism,
Copy !req
2154. and denied any involvement
in the murders of Chris Byers,
Copy !req
2155. Michael Moore
and Stevie branch.
Copy !req
2156. Were you working
at Bojangles restaurant
Copy !req
2157. on the evening of may 5th
Copy !req
2158. of 1993?
Copy !req
2159. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2160. Could you tell us
what happened?
Copy !req
2161. Well, it was about
9:30 at night,
Copy !req
2162. I found a black gentleman sitting
in the in the woman's restroom
Copy !req
2163. on the commode,
Copy !req
2164. and there was blood
dripping off of his forearm,
Copy !req
2165. but, he had
mud on his feet,
Copy !req
2166. and he seemed to be
Copy !req
2167. disarrayed when
I talked to him.
Copy !req
2168. I called the police then.
Copy !req
2169. What happened then?
Copy !req
2170. It was a female officer
for the west Memphis police,
Copy !req
2171. and she pulled on the lot
and I saw her coming
Copy !req
2172. so, I went up
to the front door.
Copy !req
2173. She kept comin' around, she went
to the drive through window.
Copy !req
2174. You did not
go in the restaurant?
Copy !req
2175. No, sir, I did not.
Copy !req
2176. Did you ever find this
bleeding black man?
Copy !req
2177. No, sir, I did not.
Copy !req
2178. Do you have a report that you
made regarding this incident?
Copy !req
2179. No, sir,
I do not.
Copy !req
2180. And you're out
looking for some boys,
Copy !req
2181. you're out in that area and
you hear about someone bleeding,
Copy !req
2182. did anything go
through your mind thinking,
Copy !req
2183. something may be going on?
Copy !req
2184. You gotta understand,
it's a different area I went to,
Copy !req
2185. it was a different ward,
Copy !req
2186. I did not connect
the two at all.
Copy !req
2187. It may have
been outside your ward,
Copy !req
2188. but, distance-wise between
the area where you were looking
Copy !req
2189. and where this restaurant was,
Copy !req
2190. it's not a
long distance, is it?
Copy !req
2191. No, sir,
it's really not.
Copy !req
2192. Did any other officer
come out there that evening?
Copy !req
2193. Not that evening.
Copy !req
2194. Were you working on
the day of may 6th of 1993?
Copy !req
2195. Yes, sir,
Copy !req
2196. two detectives came out
Copy !req
2197. and they took a report
as far as what I'd seen,
Copy !req
2198. description of
the gentleman,
Copy !req
2199. and then they took
blood scrapings off the wall.
Copy !req
2200. What is the date that
you sent the blood scrapings
Copy !req
2201. off to the crime lab
to be analyzed?
Copy !req
2202. They were
never sent.
Copy !req
2203. They were
never sent?
Copy !req
2204. That's correct.
Copy !req
2205. Where are the blood samples
at this time?
Copy !req
2206. I don't know,
they're lost.
Copy !req
2207. That's my mistake,
I lost a piece of evidence.
Copy !req
2208. Most of the time he
came up with the stupid ideas.
Copy !req
2209. I guess I influenced him
Copy !req
2210. about as much
as he influenced me.
Copy !req
2211. Most of the time
we didn't really,
Copy !req
2212. set out to do
anything in particular.
Copy !req
2213. We just starting
hanging around,
Copy !req
2214. whatever happened
just usually happened.
Copy !req
2215. Sometimes good,
sometimes bad.
Copy !req
2216. We're just sitting
on the couch watching TV
Copy !req
2217. the night
we were arrested.
Copy !req
2218. Pigs busted in,
Copy !req
2219. starting runnin'
all over the house.
Copy !req
2220. We tried to hide in the bedroom
when the cops first came.
Copy !req
2221. They wouldn't leave!
Copy !req
2222. We were in the bedroom,
turned the light off,
Copy !req
2223. maybe they'll go away.
Copy !req
2224. I know you're
in there, open up!
Copy !req
2225. We saw all
the lights go out.
Copy !req
2226. And Domini
turned 'em back on.
Copy !req
2227. No, it was
my sister.
Copy !req
2228. The interesting thing
about it is the one knife,
Copy !req
2229. that we know somebody owns
Copy !req
2230. is the Byers' knife.
Copy !req
2231. We know he owns that knife.
Copy !req
2232. He's got the motive,
Copy !req
2233. his son who
he's upset with,
Copy !req
2234. his son was
the only one mutilated,
Copy !req
2235. the other two
weren't mutilated,
Copy !req
2236. he's got knowledge
about the area,
Copy !req
2237. he knows when
the search is over with,
Copy !req
2238. he's big enough that he can
carry the boys there
Copy !req
2239. and throw them in,
Copy !req
2240. he's a jeweler,
Copy !req
2241. he's precise enough to have
Copy !req
2242. committed that mutilation,
Copy !req
2243. all of the pieces
fit together
Copy !req
2244. with somebody in
a different location,
Copy !req
2245. killing the boys
in a different location,
Copy !req
2246. because there's no
mosquito bites on 'em,
Copy !req
2247. so we know that after
the boys were killed,
Copy !req
2248. and during,
Copy !req
2249. they weren't outside.
Copy !req
2250. They had to be inside 'cause
there's no bites on 'em.
Copy !req
2251. So that means they were carried
from a death scene someplace,
Copy !req
2252. unconscious,
Copy !req
2253. and brought down
to the river,
Copy !req
2254. and they had to be killed
Copy !req
2255. shortly before they were
brought down there,
Copy !req
2256. because they all died within
a short period of time.
Copy !req
2257. So after they were
bled to death,
Copy !req
2258. after they were bludgeoned,
Copy !req
2259. and unconscious,
Copy !req
2260. somebody had to
take those three,
Copy !req
2261. take 'em to the scene,
and dump 'em.
Copy !req
2262. In order to do that,
Copy !req
2263. you gotta be
physically strong enough
Copy !req
2264. to carry
Copy !req
2265. an unconscious kid...
Copy !req
2266. Who's hog-tied.
Copy !req
2267. Jason couldn't have done it,
Copy !req
2268. in his best day,
Copy !req
2269. he couldn't
carry a little baby,
Copy !req
2270. with those little
skinny arms of his.
Copy !req
2271. So when we look
at this whole thing,
Copy !req
2272. all the pieces that
they tried to put together,
Copy !req
2273. none of it
fits with Jason
Copy !req
2274. and just about
all of it fits
Copy !req
2275. towards a person
like Byers.
Copy !req
2276. When did
you receive that knife?
Copy !req
2277. I believe it was
on the 8th,
Copy !req
2278. I've got—
It's hard to make this out,
Copy !req
2279. "January the 8th, 1994."
Copy !req
2280. Alright, and,
Copy !req
2281. who did you receive
this knife from?
Copy !req
2282. I received it from...
Copy !req
2283. How did I
actually receive it?
Copy !req
2284. No, who did you
receive the knife from?
Copy !req
2285. I received it from...
Copy !req
2286. Joe and the people
Copy !req
2287. with hbo productions.
Copy !req
2288. O.K.
Copy !req
2289. Bruce and...
Copy !req
2290. Wherever he is.
Copy !req
2291. Upon receiving that knife,
what did you do with it?
Copy !req
2292. I saw what I thought to be
Copy !req
2293. some type of substance
on the knife,
Copy !req
2294. and naturally I did not
know what it was,
Copy !req
2295. I, in turn,
Copy !req
2296. sent this knife
to genetic design.
Copy !req
2297. When the knife
was received by your firm,
Copy !req
2298. did you or your lab,
Copy !req
2299. run tests on that
particular knife?
Copy !req
2300. There was a small amount of
what appeared to be
Copy !req
2301. blood that was dried,
Copy !req
2302. or tissue in a crevice
on the knife,
Copy !req
2303. where the knife
folds when it locks.
Copy !req
2304. The results of the test
showed us that
Copy !req
2305. there was DNA
Copy !req
2306. present on the knife,
Copy !req
2307. and that we were able
to get a type,
Copy !req
2308. using a test called
Copy !req
2309. "hla-dq Alpha".
Copy !req
2310. And Mr. Byers had the same type
that was detected
Copy !req
2311. from the specimen
from the knife.
Copy !req
2312. Okay, and what was
the "dq-Alpha" type
Copy !req
2313. for Christopher Byers?
Copy !req
2314. It was also
the same type.
Copy !req
2315. So, the blood
on the knife,
Copy !req
2316. and Christopher byer's blood,
Copy !req
2317. and John mark byer's blood
Copy !req
2318. all had the same type.
Copy !req
2319. Correct.
Copy !req
2320. Judge, if I can
approach the witness?
Copy !req
2321. Alright.
Copy !req
2322. Take a look
at that knife.
Copy !req
2323. I will call that,
for identification purposes,
Copy !req
2324. the "John mark Byers' knife".
Copy !req
2325. Doctor, did you make
a comparison with this knife,
Copy !req
2326. "e-6",
Copy !req
2327. and compare that
with some of the wounds
Copy !req
2328. that you found
on Chris Byers?
Copy !req
2329. Yes, I did.
Copy !req
2330. Does that knife appear
to be a serrated knife?
Copy !req
2331. Yes, this is
a serrated knife.
Copy !req
2332. Do you have an opinion
Copy !req
2333. if some of the wounds
that you found on Chris Byers
Copy !req
2334. were consistent with wounds
which would've been caused
Copy !req
2335. by that type
of serrated knife?
Copy !req
2336. Some of the wounds
that have
Copy !req
2337. the smaller
serrated patterns,
Copy !req
2338. could have been
Copy !req
2339. inflicted with a knife
Copy !req
2340. having this type
of serration.
Copy !req
2341. How do you think
this has gone over so far
Copy !req
2342. on the
mark Byers' aspect?
Copy !req
2343. Obviously we
thought long and hard
Copy !req
2344. about mentioning a father
Copy !req
2345. as a possible suspect.
Copy !req
2346. I hate having to do that,
Copy !req
2347. but the way
the circumstances are,
Copy !req
2348. it's just coming out
whether we want it to or not.
Copy !req
2349. We had suspicions even
before the knife showed up.
Copy !req
2350. Do you think anybody
realizes the reason
Copy !req
2351. for the three day delay
in Jessie's trial was
Copy !req
2352. waiting on that DNA test
Copy !req
2353. to come back
on Byers' knife?
Copy !req
2354. I doubt it, and even
after the results came back,
Copy !req
2355. and it showed that
it could be mark's blood,
Copy !req
2356. as well as Chris' blood,
Copy !req
2357. that doesn't alleviate
Copy !req
2358. the fact that he said
Copy !req
2359. no one had ever
cut themself on the knife.
Copy !req
2360. And it shouldn't have
had blood on it at all.
Copy !req
2361. Do you think
the argument at least
Copy !req
2362. that it wasn't that the blood
was found on the blade,
Copy !req
2363. which could be
easily wiped off,
Copy !req
2364. but it was back in the hinges
that you normally wouldn't think
Copy !req
2365. if you were wipin'
off the blood,
Copy !req
2366. you wouldn't think the blood
would be inside the hinges,
Copy !req
2367. and that's where they found
that particular blood.
Copy !req
2368. How do we
get that in?
Copy !req
2369. Just ask gitchell?
Copy !req
2370. Ask Byers, we can put
Byers up on the stand.
Copy !req
2371. I think the jury
expects to see him now.
Copy !req
2372. They wanna see
what he has to say,
Copy !req
2373. don't you think so?
Copy !req
2374. I think so.
Copy !req
2375. Mr. Byers,
I need to ask you about,
Copy !req
2376. defense exhibit
number "e-6",
Copy !req
2377. this particular
Copy !req
2378. folding lock-blade knife.
Copy !req
2379. If I can approach
the witness your honor?
Copy !req
2380. Yes.
Copy !req
2381. Take a look at
that knife, please.
Copy !req
2382. Had that knife
ever been used before?
Copy !req
2383. Used for what?
Copy !req
2384. Used for any purpose?
Copy !req
2385. I had...
Copy !req
2386. Trimmed me
toenails with it,
Copy !req
2387. I had attempted to
Copy !req
2388. trim on
Copy !req
2389. some venison that I had.
Copy !req
2390. You attempted
"to trim on some venison",
Copy !req
2391. when was it that you attempted
to trim on some venison?
Copy !req
2392. Some time around
the Thanksgiving holidays.
Copy !req
2393. Do you recall being asked
on January the 26th,
Copy !req
2394. this is on page 3,
Copy !req
2395. by insp. Gitchell,
Copy !req
2396. "had you ever taken
that knife hunting,
Copy !req
2397. or used it recently?"
Copy !req
2398. Do you remember being asked
that question by gitchell?
Copy !req
2399. Specifically, no, sir,
he asked me a lot of questions.
Copy !req
2400. Do you remember
giving the answer "no,
Copy !req
2401. "that knife had not
been used at all,
Copy !req
2402. "it had just been kept up,
put in my dresser,
Copy !req
2403. "and I didn't use it,
Copy !req
2404. and the reason why was because
of the serrated edges."
Copy !req
2405. Do you recall
giving that answer
Copy !req
2406. to gitchell
on the 26th?
Copy !req
2407. No, sir,
I don't recall
Copy !req
2408. giving him
that exact answer.
Copy !req
2409. I'm sure his question
wouldn't have been asked
Copy !req
2410. exactly like your question.
Copy !req
2411. Did gitchell tell you,
Copy !req
2412. "let me explain
a problem we had,
Copy !req
2413. "and you need to answer
this from me,
Copy !req
2414. we have found
blood on this knife",
Copy !req
2415. did gitchell ask you
that question?
Copy !req
2416. I don't remember if he said
there was or not.
Copy !req
2417. Did you tell gitchell
you had no idea
Copy !req
2418. how Chris' blood
could be on that knife?
Copy !req
2419. Yes, sir, I would
not have any idea,
Copy !req
2420. if his blood
was on that knife,
Copy !req
2421. I would not know
how it got there.
Copy !req
2422. Did you have any idea
Copy !req
2423. how human blood
was on that knife?
Copy !req
2424. Yes, I would have an idea,
Copy !req
2425. I cut my thumb.
Copy !req
2426. Alright,
Copy !req
2427. isn't it true that you
never told gitchell on jan. 26th
Copy !req
2428. that you ever cut your thumb
with that particular knife,
Copy !req
2429. did you?
Copy !req
2430. Yes, sir, it seems like
during the course of the day
Copy !req
2431. I did tell him that.
Copy !req
2432. Was that during the taped
conversation or was that after?
Copy !req
2433. I don't remember.
Copy !req
2434. Okay, on the top
of page 8,
Copy !req
2435. do you recall
being asked the question,
Copy !req
2436. "I have no idea,
no idea,
Copy !req
2437. "how it could have
Copy !req
2438. any human blood on it",
Copy !req
2439. do you recall
giving that answer?
Copy !req
2440. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2441. Then do you recall stating,
Copy !req
2442. "I don't even remember
nicking myself with it,
Copy !req
2443. cutting the deer meat
or anything."
Copy !req
2444. Is that the answer
you gave?
Copy !req
2445. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2446. And is that the truth?
Copy !req
2447. At the time when
he was questioning me,
Copy !req
2448. I might not have remembered,
Copy !req
2449. we were getting ready
to go into a trial...
Copy !req
2450. Did you remember
on this date
Copy !req
2451. cutting yourself
with the venison,
Copy !req
2452. or not
cutting yourself?
Copy !req
2453. The date that
Gary questioned—
Copy !req
2454. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2455. I might not have
remembered it at that time,
Copy !req
2456. when he was
questioning me,
Copy !req
2457. but, I could have remembered it
later on in the day
Copy !req
2458. and talked to him
about it.
Copy !req
2459. Earlier that afternoon,
Copy !req
2460. had you given
Chris a whipping?
Copy !req
2461. Approximately around 5:30.
Copy !req
2462. About 5:30,
was this with a belt?
Copy !req
2463. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2464. How many times did you
hit him with the belt?
Copy !req
2465. I spanked him
two or three times.
Copy !req
2466. And what part of the body
did you spank him?
Copy !req
2467. It would've been
just on his behind.
Copy !req
2468. Was he wearing his paints,
Copy !req
2469. or did you have him
pull his pants down?
Copy !req
2470. No, he had on
blue jeans.
Copy !req
2471. The judge back there
during that last recess
Copy !req
2472. before you were
recalled here,
Copy !req
2473. says that you have
a brain tumor
Copy !req
2474. and you're being treated,
Copy !req
2475. do you wanna talk about that,
is it true?
Copy !req
2476. It's been rumored.
Copy !req
2477. Yes, I have
a brain tumor.
Copy !req
2478. And you're
being treated?
Copy !req
2479. Yes, I'm being
treated for it.
Copy !req
2480. I need to
ask you one question
Copy !req
2481. and I hope you
won't get angry,
Copy !req
2482. but has
even the suggestion
Copy !req
2483. that you may have had
Copy !req
2484. something to do with
the murders of these boys
Copy !req
2485. caused any problems
within your family
Copy !req
2486. or with any of the other
Copy !req
2487. victim's families?
Copy !req
2488. No.
Copy !req
2489. They all the know
the truth and, no.
Copy !req
2490. Did you have anything to do
with these boy's deaths?
Copy !req
2491. No more than you did.
Copy !req
2492. Someone said
you're buying a new house,
Copy !req
2493. that you're leaving
west Memphis?
Copy !req
2494. I didn't say that.
Copy !req
2495. We might try to move.
Copy !req
2496. Out of west Memphis?
Copy !req
2497. Well, somewhere,
Copy !req
2498. you would
probably wanna move.
Copy !req
2499. You know?
Copy !req
2500. Did you say where
you were gonna move?
Copy !req
2501. No.
Copy !req
2502. Let me ask
you a question,
Copy !req
2503. would you wanna
live in a house
Copy !req
2504. that your baby died less than
3/4 of a mile from?
Copy !req
2505. I wouldn't, no.
Copy !req
2506. That answers the question.
Copy !req
2507. You're talking about
your whole family, right?
Copy !req
2508. You're not just
talking about you?
Copy !req
2509. You wouldn't move and leave
your wife and children somewhere
Copy !req
2510. would you?
Copy !req
2511. Not if we were
gonna stay together.
Copy !req
2512. O.K.
Copy !req
2513. Some of the questions you ask
are kind of ridiculous,
Copy !req
2514. some of 'em are kinda
Copy !req
2515. odd or strange
or different,
Copy !req
2516. how ever you'd like
to comment on 'em,
Copy !req
2517. but, some of 'em seem like you
just use a little common sense
Copy !req
2518. and think about
what you would do
Copy !req
2519. or how you would feel.
Copy !req
2520. Some of the questions
you wouldn't have to ask.
Copy !req
2521. We have to ask them,
Copy !req
2522. we can't
quote ourselves.
Copy !req
2523. I know, but a lot of times
things are printed in the paper
Copy !req
2524. that people did not say
and the news media,
Copy !req
2525. I'm not stating
which individual,
Copy !req
2526. says they got it from
a confidential informer,
Copy !req
2527. and you don't like to turn your
confidential informer over,
Copy !req
2528. when you're confidential
informer is your imagination.
Copy !req
2529. There's a lot of things
that printed in the paper
Copy !req
2530. that people did not say.
Copy !req
2531. But the media
has the rights to print
Copy !req
2532. what they wanna print.
Copy !req
2533. Victims don't
have any rights.
Copy !req
2534. Now that I've
heard him talk...
Copy !req
2535. I kinda had an idea
of what he was like
Copy !req
2536. before he talked,
Copy !req
2537. but after he talked
Copy !req
2538. he wasn't anything like
I thought he would be.
Copy !req
2539. How is he?
Copy !req
2540. I see him now as more like
a human being
Copy !req
2541. than I did before.
Copy !req
2542. Now I see him as
having a personality.
Copy !req
2543. From a defense standpoint,
Copy !req
2544. I've never been
a defense attorney, but,
Copy !req
2545. to put him
on the witness stand,
Copy !req
2546. sure seems to be
an awful big gamble.
Copy !req
2547. I can't understand that mindset
that puts you in the position
Copy !req
2548. where you're willing
to take that gamble.
Copy !req
2549. Especially when
you follow it up
Copy !req
2550. with Mr. Bojangles'
Copy !req
2551. accusations.
Copy !req
2552. It didn't
make any sense.
Copy !req
2553. 'Cause to me,
if I were on the jury,
Copy !req
2554. it would look like
something desperate,
Copy !req
2555. they're gonna
cast blame on anybody
Copy !req
2556. and everybody they can.
Copy !req
2557. And the defense
didn't have the the guts
Copy !req
2558. to actually ask him
did he do it?
Copy !req
2559. The song that I really
Copy !req
2560. can relate to
by metallica
Copy !req
2561. is "sanitarium".
Copy !req
2562. 'Cause I feel like all those
times I was put in the hospital
Copy !req
2563. I didn't need it.
Copy !req
2564. It was just the police,
Copy !req
2565. another way for them
setting me up,
Copy !req
2566. when they couldn't
send me to prison.
Copy !req
2567. We'll get him out of our way
for a little while,
Copy !req
2568. by sending him
somewhere else.
Copy !req
2569. I like metallica because,
Copy !req
2570. well, all...
Copy !req
2571. Hard music like that,
because,
Copy !req
2572. it gives me an
adrenaline rush.
Copy !req
2573. Makes me feel more alive.
Copy !req
2574. Now during the course of,
Copy !req
2575. talking to Mr. Echols,
Copy !req
2576. did you ask him,
Copy !req
2577. who did he think
did it and why?
Copy !req
2578. In one area he says
Copy !req
2579. he had an opinion
Copy !req
2580. for who could've
done the murders,
Copy !req
2581. as being someone sick,
Copy !req
2582. and it was some type of
thrill kill,
Copy !req
2583. he also stated
that the penis
Copy !req
2584. was a symbol of power
in his religion,
Copy !req
2585. known as "wicca",
Copy !req
2586. he also stated
that the number 3
Copy !req
2587. has a sacred number
in the belief.
Copy !req
2588. Did he tell you
anything about demonic forces?
Copy !req
2589. Yes, he said that all people
have a demonic force in them
Copy !req
2590. and that a person
would have no control
Copy !req
2591. over that demonic force.
Copy !req
2592. Mr. Echols was not
the only person that told you
Copy !req
2593. that the kids probably
died of mutilation, was he?
Copy !req
2594. No, sir.
Copy !req
2595. And, when, Mr.
Echols, you asked him,
Copy !req
2596. what type of books
did he enjoy reading?
Copy !req
2597. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2598. Um...
Copy !req
2599. And he told you
Anton Levy
Copy !req
2600. and Stephen king?
Copy !req
2601. Yes, sir.
Copy !req
2602. In your opinion is
there anything unusual
Copy !req
2603. about those being the
type of books that he likes?
Copy !req
2604. Anton Levy,
Copy !req
2605. is a book of
Copy !req
2606. satanic rules
and involvement.
Copy !req
2607. Stephen king's
Copy !req
2608. seems to be horror movies,
Copy !req
2609. horror books.
Copy !req
2610. You're asking if I felt
that was strange, yes I did.
Copy !req
2611. Now let me refer you back
to your statement
Copy !req
2612. that you gave
officer Ridge.
Copy !req
2613. Did you tell him
in that statement
Copy !req
2614. that you
had been a member
Copy !req
2615. of a white witch group
for 5 years?
Copy !req
2616. No.
Copy !req
2617. I've never been
a member of any group.
Copy !req
2618. If he put that in his report
you're saying that's inaccurate.
Copy !req
2619. Yes, I am.
Copy !req
2620. He made that up.
Copy !req
2621. Yes I am.
Copy !req
2622. On question number nine,
Copy !req
2623. how do you think
Copy !req
2624. the person feels
that did this?
Copy !req
2625. The answer was,
"probably makes them feel good,
Copy !req
2626. gives them power."
Copy !req
2627. Now, I guess officer Ridge
said that too.
Copy !req
2628. No, I used
common sense on that.
Copy !req
2629. If someone was doing it,
they must've wanted to,
Copy !req
2630. and if they were doing something
they wanted to
Copy !req
2631. it must've
made them happy.
Copy !req
2632. I don't think they were doin' it
'cause someone forced them to
Copy !req
2633. or because they
didn't want to.
Copy !req
2634. So, in your mind...
Copy !req
2635. The person that
killed these three kids,
Copy !req
2636. it's common sense that
killing three 8 years olds
Copy !req
2637. would make you feel good.
Copy !req
2638. Whoever did it,
it must have.
Copy !req
2639. Did you also tell him
Copy !req
2640. that each person had
a demonic side to them?
Copy !req
2641. I believe every person
has a good side and a bad side.
Copy !req
2642. Were those your words,
Copy !req
2643. what he's got written down here,
you stated that
Copy !req
2644. that there was no control
of the demonic force
Copy !req
2645. in a people?
Copy !req
2646. He asked me did I think
there were some people
Copy !req
2647. that could not
control that side,
Copy !req
2648. I said yes,
I guess there is.
Copy !req
2649. It also states that you
stated that the younger the victim
Copy !req
2650. would mean more innocent,
Copy !req
2651. and in turn more power
Copy !req
2652. would be given the person
doing the killing.
Copy !req
2653. Right.
Copy !req
2654. Did you say that?
Copy !req
2655. Yes.
Copy !req
2656. Those are your words.
Copy !req
2657. Did you pick that up when
studying to be a catholic?
Copy !req
2658. No.
Copy !req
2659. I saw that on
several movies, books.
Copy !req
2660. Question ♪11,
Copy !req
2661. when he asked you,
how do you think they died,
Copy !req
2662. the answer is,
Copy !req
2663. "mutilation,
cut up all three,
Copy !req
2664. "heard they were
in the water drowning,
Copy !req
2665. cut up one more
than the others..."
Copy !req
2666. Is that again
what officer Ridge said
Copy !req
2667. and you just agreed?
Copy !req
2668. No, I saw that on TV,
newspapers,
Copy !req
2669. people talkin'.
Copy !req
2670. And...
Copy !req
2671. You knew about
the drowning, correct?
Copy !req
2672. I knew that they were
in the water,
Copy !req
2673. I didn't know
that they drowned.
Copy !req
2674. You knew that one was
cut up more than the others?
Copy !req
2675. He said, "do you think one was
hurt worse than the others?"
Copy !req
2676. Oh, so again,
that particular area's,
Copy !req
2677. one of those things
where officer Ridge told you
Copy !req
2678. and that wasn't
your response,
Copy !req
2679. you just responded about
the drowning and mutilation.
Copy !req
2680. If he didn't get
the answer he liked,
Copy !req
2681. he would go back and try to
get me to say something else.
Copy !req
2682. And it's your testimony,
specifically,
Copy !req
2683. that you weren't
the one who said
Copy !req
2684. that one was cut up
more than the other,
Copy !req
2685. that it was officer Ridge
who said that.
Copy !req
2686. I agreed with him
when he said that.
Copy !req
2687. And if he says
something different,
Copy !req
2688. he'd be lying
about it, right?
Copy !req
2689. You're the one
tellin' the truth.
Copy !req
2690. I wouldn't
put it past him.
Copy !req
2691. Damien, we're getting
close to the end now.
Copy !req
2692. How do you
feel so far?
Copy !req
2693. I feel good so far.
Copy !req
2694. To me it looks like
we got it beat.
Copy !req
2695. What do you think the
worst thing for us has been?
Copy !req
2696. In the three weeks
we've been here,
Copy !req
2697. what has
hurt the most?
Copy !req
2698. I only know of two things
that have really hurt,
Copy !req
2699. that one kid gettin'
up there for Jason,
Copy !req
2700. and those girls.
Copy !req
2701. The Thursday's newspaper
Copy !req
2702. which addressed you
testifying on Wednesday,
Copy !req
2703. was real good,
Copy !req
2704. it talked about
that you did well,
Copy !req
2705. but Friday's,
regarding your thurday testimony
Copy !req
2706. wasn't as good,
what do you think?
Copy !req
2707. I think I did real good
the first day,
Copy !req
2708. the second day
it didn't look as good,
Copy !req
2709. because they kept trying
to trip me up or something.
Copy !req
2710. There was one point
in there where he asked you
Copy !req
2711. he says "it looks like your
just changin' your story,
Copy !req
2712. to fit
whatever comes up",
Copy !req
2713. and you said "yeah".
Copy !req
2714. I was just like
halfway listening to him.
Copy !req
2715. I was real nervous
when I first got up there,
Copy !req
2716. enough to keep my
attention focused,
Copy !req
2717. after I was
up there a few minutes,
Copy !req
2718. I just started day dreaming.
Copy !req
2719. "Day dreaming".
Copy !req
2720. Maybe they'll only halfway
kill you when they convict you.
Copy !req
2721. "Halfway"?
Copy !req
2722. How do they do that?
Copy !req
2723. I don't know,
Copy !req
2724. maybe they'll start
day dreaming.
Copy !req
2725. Anything wrong with wearing
black in and of itself?
Copy !req
2726. No.
Copy !req
2727. Anything wrong with
the heavy metal stuff?
Copy !req
2728. No...
Copy !req
2729. The book,
anything wrong with that?
Copy !req
2730. No, but when
you look at it together,
Copy !req
2731. you begin to see inside
Copy !req
2732. Damien Echols,
Copy !req
2733. you see inside
that person,
Copy !req
2734. and you look inside there
and there's not a soul in there.
Copy !req
2735. My client is a teen-ager,
Copy !req
2736. and we certainly didn't
hide that fact from ya.
Copy !req
2737. And the fact that my client
did some writings,
Copy !req
2738. take these back,
go back and read 'em,
Copy !req
2739. but this, in and of itself,
Copy !req
2740. is no evidence of murder,
Copy !req
2741. and even if you added
all the other things,
Copy !req
2742. "trappings of occultism",
Copy !req
2743. according to
Dr. Griffis,
Copy !req
2744. that has nothing to do
with this case whatsoever.
Copy !req
2745. Is it a coincidence...
Copy !req
2746. That this knife is found,
in the lake,
Copy !req
2747. hidden...
Copy !req
2748. Behind Jason Baldwin's house?
Copy !req
2749. There are marks
on Christopher Byers,
Copy !req
2750. where you got
like a dash,
Copy !req
2751. where it's a cut,
Copy !req
2752. a cut, an open space,
Copy !req
2753. a cut, an open space.
Copy !req
2754. And if you take
this knife
Copy !req
2755. and you do that,
Copy !req
2756. you can see it leaves
Copy !req
2757. a cut and an open space,
a cut and an open space.
Copy !req
2758. Now, if you take...
Copy !req
2759. This knife...
Copy !req
2760. Exhibit...
Copy !req
2761. Defense exhibit six...
Copy !req
2762. And even with
the slightest pressure,
Copy !req
2763. it makes a straight line.
Copy !req
2764. Crime scene...
Copy !req
2765. It doesn't fit for a kid
Copy !req
2766. to bleed to death,
Copy !req
2767. and not leave
a drop behind.
Copy !req
2768. For all the other injuries
to their faces,
Copy !req
2769. these other injuries
are gonna bleed too.
Copy !req
2770. And there's not
a drop of blood?
Copy !req
2771. Not a drop of blood?
Copy !req
2772. Look at history,
Copy !req
2773. look at hundreds of years
of religious history.
Copy !req
2774. There have been hundreds
of people killed
Copy !req
2775. in the name of religion.
Copy !req
2776. It is a motivating force,
Copy !req
2777. it gives people
who want to do evil,
Copy !req
2778. want to commit murders,
Copy !req
2779. a reason to do
what they're doing.
Copy !req
2780. Satanic panic.
Copy !req
2781. Yeah, that's a scary thing.
Copy !req
2782. It's a scarier thing to convict
someone with no evidence,
Copy !req
2783. if you can't figure it out,
if it doesn't make sense,
Copy !req
2784. let's call it
a cult killing,
Copy !req
2785. and find
somebody weird!
Copy !req
2786. Find somebody
who wears black!
Copy !req
2787. But, they let one thing
Copy !req
2788. go by the wayside...
Copy !req
2789. Is that there's nothing
that links Jason
Copy !req
2790. to these activities.
Copy !req
2791. Not one witness says,
Copy !req
2792. "that's what he does,
Copy !req
2793. that's his beliefs".
Copy !req
2794. We don't have a writing,
a drawing, a picture,
Copy !req
2795. not a person, nothing...
Copy !req
2796. Links him to it.
Copy !req
2797. But that doesn't matter.
Copy !req
2798. That doesn't matter to them!
Copy !req
2799. Because he's sittin'
over there with Damien,
Copy !req
2800. they want you
to convict him.
Copy !req
2801. Guilt by association
Copy !req
2802. is a horrible thing.
Copy !req
2803. Damien, do you
think he looks like you?
Copy !req
2804. I don't know,
not really.
Copy !req
2805. I think he's got
domini's ears.
Copy !req
2806. Can you change
his diapers, Damien?
Copy !req
2807. Do you think
you'll be spending
Copy !req
2808. more time
with your child?
Copy !req
2809. I hope.
Copy !req
2810. C'mon, Damien, it's time.
Copy !req
2811. What's his first words
gonna be, "not guilty"?
Copy !req
2812. His first words will be
"capital murder".
Copy !req
2813. What's it feel like to
go through a month long trial
Copy !req
2814. accused of something
you didn't do?
Copy !req
2815. Horrible.
Copy !req
2816. Are you nervous now?
Copy !req
2817. Yeah.
Copy !req
2818. There's nothin' we can do now
but sit around and wait,
Copy !req
2819. but, you got anything
Copy !req
2820. you wanna ask me?
Copy !req
2821. Where do we go when
the jury comes back out
Copy !req
2822. and says
I'm not guilty?
Copy !req
2823. Where do you wanna go?
Copy !req
2824. Disneyland maybe.
Copy !req
2825. Would you like
to go to Disneyland?
Copy !req
2826. Have you ever been
on a trip at all?
Copy !req
2827. The Springs.
Copy !req
2828. Well I tell you
what, my man,
Copy !req
2829. it would be a Joy
to take you.
Copy !req
2830. Would you like to go?
Copy !req
2831. Yeah.
Copy !req
2832. Do you understand now
Copy !req
2833. why we didn't
want you to testify?
Copy !req
2834. Yeah.
Copy !req
2835. Do you see how that hurt Damien,
I think it did.
Copy !req
2836. Did you see how they
talked about his witnesses?
Copy !req
2837. They didn't have anything
to talk about us,
Copy !req
2838. they didn't have
anything to talk about,
Copy !req
2839. 'cause we didn't
give 'em a chance.
Copy !req
2840. And...
Copy !req
2841. Oh, man.
Copy !req
2842. It's heavy.
Copy !req
2843. Do you think that
Copy !req
2844. this will change at all...
Copy !req
2845. How you choose
your friends?
Copy !req
2846. Yeah.
Copy !req
2847. What do you think
this will do
Copy !req
2848. to you and your
friendship with Damien?
Copy !req
2849. Stop it, I guess.
Copy !req
2850. Would you stop
being his friend?
Copy !req
2851. I wouldn't be his enemy,
Copy !req
2852. but, I probably
wouldn't be around.
Copy !req
2853. You heard what was
said about him.
Copy !req
2854. Do you think he
could've done it?
Copy !req
2855. About what they said?
Copy !req
2856. Do you think
Damien could've
Copy !req
2857. killed those little boys?
Copy !req
2858. They made it
seem like he did.
Copy !req
2859. What do you think?
Copy !req
2860. I don't know.
Copy !req
2861. If you were
on that jury
Copy !req
2862. would you have a hard time
letting him go?
Copy !req
2863. Based on
what you heard?
Copy !req
2864. Yeah.
Copy !req
2865. I would too.
Copy !req
2866. Would you
let yourself go?
Copy !req
2867. Yeah.
Copy !req
2868. If I was...
Copy !req
2869. Up there
I'd let myself go.
Copy !req
2870. That's the answer
I wanna hear.
Copy !req
2871. 'Cause you know you
didn't do it, don't you?
Copy !req
2872. Yeah.
Copy !req
2873. Did Paul surprise
you on his closing?
Copy !req
2874. I think Paul
should've left out
Copy !req
2875. the guilt
by association part.
Copy !req
2876. He came out hard on that,
didn't he?
Copy !req
2877. Did you have any idea
he was gonna do that?
Copy !req
2878. Mm-mmm.
Copy !req
2879. I thought he'd be smart enough
to stay away from that.
Copy !req
2880. Hurt your feelings?
Copy !req
2881. I wanted to
strangle him.
Copy !req
2882. Were you
watching the jury?
Copy !req
2883. Mm-hmm.
Copy !req
2884. How do you pick it?
Copy !req
2885. With my finger.
Copy !req
2886. Now, I think it was
probably about 60-40.
Copy !req
2887. 40 for us,
Copy !req
2888. and 60 against us.
Copy !req
2889. Once you get outta here,
you gonna buy the beer?
Copy !req
2890. The whiskey.
Copy !req
2891. I don't want beer.
Copy !req
2892. And I'll buy
the bojangles' chicken.
Copy !req
2893. I wanna get a cigar,
Copy !req
2894. cut it open and dump
all the tobacco out,
Copy !req
2895. fill it up with marijuana,
Copy !req
2896. smoke the whole thing.
Copy !req
2897. We gotta
get you out of here,
Copy !req
2898. you gotta go to work
and pay my bill.
Copy !req
2899. I'll get a job at
a gas station or something,
Copy !req
2900. change my name
to "Bob Smith".
Copy !req
2901. Alright, ladies and gentlemen,
Copy !req
2902. the bailiff's informed me
that you've arrived at verdicts,
Copy !req
2903. if you have, pass them
to the bailiff or the sheriff.
Copy !req
2904. The first verdict
reads at as follows,
Copy !req
2905. "we the jury find Damien Echols
guilty of capital murder
Copy !req
2906. "in the death
of Stevie branch,
Copy !req
2907. "we the jury find Damien Echols
guilty of capital murder
Copy !req
2908. "in the death of
Chris Byers,
Copy !req
2909. "we the jury find Damien Echols
guilty of capital murder
Copy !req
2910. "in the death
of Michael Moore.
Copy !req
2911. "We the jury find Jason Baldwin
guilty of capital murder
Copy !req
2912. "in the the death
of Chris Byers,
Copy !req
2913. "we the jury find Jason Baldwin
guilty of capital murder
Copy !req
2914. "in the death
of Stevie branch,
Copy !req
2915. "we the jury find Jason Baldwin
guilty of capital murder
Copy !req
2916. in the death
of Michael Moore",
Copy !req
2917. all of the verdicts
were signed by the foreman,
Copy !req
2918. ladies and gentlemen,
Copy !req
2919. it's necessary at this time
that the court
Copy !req
2920. poll the jury,
Copy !req
2921. as to all six verdicts,
Copy !req
2922. so when your
name is called,
Copy !req
2923. if these six verdicts
Copy !req
2924. represent your
individual verdict,
Copy !req
2925. then answer "yes"
as your name is called.
Copy !req
2926. Juror number one.
Copy !req
2927. Yes.
Copy !req
2928. Juror number two.
Copy !req
2929. Yes.
Copy !req
2930. Juror number three.
Copy !req
2931. Yes.
Copy !req
2932. Juror number seven.
Copy !req
2933. Yes.
Copy !req
2934. The prosecution didn't
have any evidence,
Copy !req
2935. but they don't care.
Copy !req
2936. Just because
somebody wears black
Copy !req
2937. and has different beliefs,
Copy !req
2938. they're gonna convict them
of something.
Copy !req
2939. Poor, poor parents,
yeah, I'm sorry for 'em—
Copy !req
2940. I ain't, I
ain't sorry for 'em.
Copy !req
2941. I don't give a
damn about the parents,
Copy !req
2942. but I'm sorry
for the kids.
Copy !req
2943. I ain't,
Copy !req
2944. ain't sorry for an.
Copy !req
2945. There's no reason to
Copy !req
2946. kill three more boys.
Copy !req
2947. That didn't do
a damn thing.
Copy !req
2948. Right now I
wish I was a witch,
Copy !req
2949. talk about
a spell on somebody.
Copy !req
2950. Boy, I'd put
a good one on.
Copy !req
2951. I guess gitchell goes out
with a big "bang",
Copy !req
2952. you know he's fuckin'
gonna retire.
Copy !req
2953. Now he's probably
gonna run for office.
Copy !req
2954. I got an office for him.
Copy !req
2955. Mayor of hell.
Copy !req
2956. As far as I'm concerned
west Memphis can go to hell.
Copy !req
2957. West Memphis is hell.
Copy !req
2958. I have put
my 20 years in,
Copy !req
2959. and hopefully this is
the last case
Copy !req
2960. I'll have
of this magnitude,
Copy !req
2961. hopefully,
it's my last case.
Copy !req
2962. And...
Copy !req
2963. I'm leaving
on a high note.
Copy !req
2964. So there's no better
way to leave
Copy !req
2965. than your head up,
high and proud.
Copy !req
2966. Well you know,
I don't—
Copy !req
2967. I'm not surprised,
if that's what you're asking.
Copy !req
2968. I told you earlier,
Copy !req
2969. I thought the evidence
was more than sufficient
Copy !req
2970. to make those findings.
Copy !req
2971. They won't kill
no more babies.
Copy !req
2972. No more babies
will they kill.
Copy !req
2973. Let's go.
Copy !req
2974. You're gonna get out!
Copy !req
2975. You're gonna fry, Damien!
Copy !req
2976. You're gonna fry, Damien!
Copy !req
2977. We know you're
innocent, Jason!
Copy !req
2978. I knew from when
I was real small,
Copy !req
2979. that people were
gonna know who I was,
Copy !req
2980. I always had that feelin',
Copy !req
2981. but, I just never knew how
Copy !req
2982. they were gonna learn.
Copy !req
2983. I kinda enjoy it,
'cause now even after I die,
Copy !req
2984. people are gonna
remember me forever,
Copy !req
2985. they're gonna
talk about me for years,
Copy !req
2986. people in
west Memphis will
Copy !req
2987. tell their kids stories,
Copy !req
2988. it'll be sort of like
Copy !req
2989. I'm the west Memphis boogey man.
Copy !req
2990. Little kids will be
lookin' under their bed,
Copy !req
2991. "Damien might be
under there."
Copy !req