1. Evil has many faces.Copy !req
2. A man who laughs.Copy !req
3. The master of Metropolis.Copy !req
4. The Guardian of fear.Copy !req
5. A conqueror of worlds.Copy !req
6. Many faces, but just one name:Copy !req
7. The superviilain.Copy !req
8. Powerful, charismatic...Copy !req
9. intelligent, ruthless.Copy !req
10. The superviilain reflects our fears
and frustrations...Copy !req
11. the dangers and perils of everyday life.Copy !req
12. They commit the heinous crimes we will not.Copy !req
13. And in a world where right and wrong
are not absolute...Copy !req
14. where shades of gray exist in life
as well as the comic page...Copy !req
15. evil isn't just unavoidable, it's necessary.Copy !req
16. In the world of comics, one could argue
that the villain is even more vital to the story...Copy !req
17. than the just and moral hero.Copy !req
18. For without a proper adversary...Copy !req
19. we tack the very essence of story:Copy !req
20. Conflict.Copy !req
21. After all, isn't it the villain
who catapults the hero into action?Copy !req
22. Without the villain, there's really no story.
The superhero exists and does nothing.Copy !req
23. If the villain isn't acting out,
Superman stays Clark Kent.Copy !req
24. The superheroes are always reacting.
The villains are making things happen.Copy !req
25. Villains are the ones with a plan. The villains
are the ones who are taking the initiative.Copy !req
26. If you define "protagonist" as somebody
who sets something in motion...Copy !req
27. and "antagonist" as somebody
who stops him...Copy !req
28. almost all the villains in comic books
are protagonists.Copy !req
29. You need that ongoing impetus of the bad guy,
the one who's gonna be a challenge...Copy !req
30. the one who is going
to threaten society's rules...Copy !req
31. and be put in their place by somebody
who upholds those rules.Copy !req
32. Not only is there no story
or conflict without the villain...Copy !req
33. but it's through the villain
that we see our hero at their very core.Copy !req
34. We see their many flaws,
we see their many weaknesses.Copy !req
35. We see what makes them the hero they are.Copy !req
36. Without the villain to define the hero...Copy !req
37. you don't have a hero.Copy !req
38. You have no anvil from which the superhero
is pounded into the shape that he is.Copy !req
39. Villains in comic book stories...Copy !req
40. allow the hero or the superhero
to really flex their muscles.Copy !req
41. The more power the supervillains have...Copy !req
42. the more you can showcase
how important that superhero is.Copy !req
43. The stronger your villains are, the stronger
your hero is. They have to overcome...Copy !req
44. somebody who's smart, powerful...Copy !req
45. who knows what they want and who's on
a mission that they believe in.Copy !req
46. So if the hero can stop them, you know,
it makes them that much better.Copy !req
47. All the more true in the DC universe
because we have rich villains.Copy !req
48. One is Flash and Reverse-Flash.
The very names give you what they are.Copy !req
49. Reverse-Flash suffered something
so horrible.Copy !req
50. And he felt like the Flash could have fixed it.
He knew that the Flash could go through time.Copy !req
51. He'd seen it happen before.Copy !req
52. He said, "Why don't you go back,
prevent this from happening? Why won't you?"Copy !req
53. The guy won't do it.Copy !req
54. "Well, he won't do it
because he hasn't felt tragedy like I have.Copy !req
55. So I'm going to have him feel tragedy
to make him a better hero.Copy !req
56. You need to be able to take the measures
to protect everyone you love.Copy !req
57. You wouldn't do it for me. Maybe you'll do it
for yourself. So I put you to the test."Copy !req
58. The Riddler,
he's all about Batman's intellect.Copy !req
59. He, to me, is the sword-sharpener.
He's the guy that says:Copy !req
60. "if you are not clever enough,
everybody dies in that way."Copy !req
61. He shows in some ways
that Batman, at his roots...Copy !req
62. needs to be the greatest detective.Copy !req
63. At his heart, he's born in Detective Comics. At
the core of the character is Sherlock Holmes.Copy !req
64. He's that guy that, because he's human,
needs to be smarter than anybody else...Copy !req
65. to solve these crimes.Copy !req
66. For me, the Riddler steps on to the stage
and challenges that fundamental element...Copy !req
67. of Batman's capabilities that needs
to be there almost more than any other.Copy !req
68. I mean, that's Batman's superpower.
He's the greatest detective of all time.Copy !req
69. The relationship between a villain
and their rival is more complicated...Copy !req
70. than a question of right versus wrong,
good versus evil.Copy !req
71. Together, they form a dynamic that is, at times,
interdependent.Copy !req
72. A villain cannot exist without a hero
and a hero, his or her villain.Copy !req
73. They're in a symbiotic relationship
in that if the villains were to do off the hero...Copy !req
74. I think they would probably
find themselves a little listless.Copy !req
75. When we did "Death of the Family" story...Copy !req
76. he comes at Batman saying,
“Deep down, we really love each other."Copy !req
77. And, of course, Batman says, "I hate nothing
more on the earth than you, Joker."Copy !req
78. The Joker feels that the family that Batman
has built around him all these years...Copy !req
79. is dragging him down.Copy !req
80. He says,
“These people are draining your soul.Copy !req
81. These other members,
they're sucking the life out of you.Copy !req
82. I'm your friend. I wanna make you
be the best that you can be...Copy !req
83. so that we can both have a relationship
that we could enjoy for so many years...Copy !req
84. without these knuckleheads
on the side constantly draining you.Copy !req
85. And so I'm gonna take care of them for you,
and I will wipe out all these family members...Copy !req
86. so you can be free of their encumbrance."Copy !req
87. What the Joker, at his core, is saying
is that:Copy !req
88. "You might not love us
the way that we love you...Copy !req
89. or you might not want to admit you love us
the way we love you.Copy !req
90. This rogues' gallery that you have,"
he's like,"All of us love you.Copy !req
91. All of us are here only to make you
a better superhero."Copy !req
92. The question always becomes:
What came first, the hero or the villain?Copy !req
93. Did the hero introduce himself to society
to do better good...Copy !req
94. and because they put on that costume...Copy !req
95. the costumed villain arose
to confront him or to challenge him?Copy !req
96. Or did the costumed villain arrive first...Copy !req
97. and the hero was created in order to stop
that type of villain from succeeding...Copy !req
98. or getting more powerful?Copy !req
99. There are threats
that Superman has to face...Copy !req
100. where I would tend to think
we're grateful Superman is there.Copy !req
101. People might say, "if Superman weren't here,
would these menaces be coming to Earth?"Copy !req
102. Bane comes to Gotham
specifically to fight Batman.Copy !req
103. This is the Riddler
as he originally appeared.Copy !req
104. First moved to Gotham because
he was attracted by the challenge of Batman.Copy !req
105. They both came there to challenge Batman...Copy !req
106. to see if he could be a foe worthy of them,
give them something interesting to do.Copy !req
107. So the question is which came first?Copy !req
108. And I'm not sure
if I really wanna answer that question.Copy !req
109. The one thing I can say,
one can't exist without the other.Copy !req
110. As long as we have villains,
there will be heroes.Copy !req
111. And as long as we have heroes,
there will be villains.Copy !req
112. But what is it about the villain
that keeps us so entranced...Copy !req
113. that captivates and enthralls us?Copy !req
114. What makes us applaud the very person
we want to see vanquished?Copy !req
115. The reasons are often as multifaceted
as the villains we enjoy.Copy !req
116. What makes a great superviilain
is something that we can relate to.Copy !req
117. It's the same thing
that makes for a great superhero.Copy !req
118. In the superhero we have this exaggeration
of what our hopes and desires are.Copy !req
119. At the same time
the villain has aspects of us...Copy !req
120. that challenge the strengths
that we're admiring in the superhero.Copy !req
121. I would like to think that most people
identify with the hero, heh.Copy !req
122. But in this day and age there might be
some who identify with the villain.Copy !req
123. I understand getting a gun that shoots ice
and going into a bank and trying to rob it.Copy !req
124. We understand temptation.Copy !req
125. The oldest stories ever told
have to do with temptation...Copy !req
126. whether it's Pandora or Adam and Eve.Copy !req
127. This very basic quality in human beings
that runs with us throughout our lives.Copy !req
128. Now, there are villains
like the Joker or Black Hand...Copy !req
129. that are so twisted and dark...Copy !req
130. you love seeing them do their stuff,
but you don't relate to them.Copy !req
131. At least, you don't admit you do.Copy !req
132. Everyone wishes that they could turn invisible
or fly or have x-ray vision.Copy !req
133. And I think what's cool about villains
is everyone wishes that they could break bad.Copy !req
134. What's the point of having a villain who can't
act out aspects of ourselves that we repress?Copy !req
135. I can be evil. I'm gonna give you
my husband's number...Copy !req
136. and you can have a long chat with him.
Heh, heh, heh.Copy !req
137. I think there are some people who really
associate themselves with, like, a Superman.Copy !req
138. On the other hand,
people covet Lex Luthor's keen intellect.Copy !req
139. When I was growing up
I loved the character of Vandal Savage.Copy !req
140. DC had relaunched The Flash
with Wally West as the Flash...Copy !req
141. after Crisis on Infinite Earths and his first
villain that he fought was Vandal Savage.Copy !req
142. He was immortal.
And who wouldn't want to be immortal?Copy !req
143. And who wouldn't want to have
this far reach into history?Copy !req
144. He's one of those villains that has nothing
to lose. That's a very dangerous man.Copy !req
145. You know,
he just knows he will be resurrected.Copy !req
146. How do you defeat that person?Copy !req
147. You look good. Been working out?Copy !req
148. You could probably use a little sun.Copy !req
149. Then again, who am I to talk?Copy !req
150. They seem to be happy. Heh.
They seem to enjoy being bad.Copy !req
151. Most of the heroes, especially of late...Copy !req
152. they're all broody and sad.
They never seem to be enjoying anything.Copy !req
153. You look at villains
and they're having the time of their lives.Copy !req
154. Harley became popular
because, in part, she's funny.Copy !req
155. She can stand up to the Joker.
She can tell a joke. She can get a laugh.Copy !req
156. When I go to conventions
and I see young ladies cosplaying as her...Copy !req
157. I think they just tap into that feeling of fun
and that she can just be kind of whimsical.Copy !req
158. Harley Quinn is one of those characters
you love.Copy !req
159. Even if she's smashing somebody
with a hammer, you love her.Copy !req
160. There's a handful of those villains,
like Larfleeze...Copy !req
161. the Orange Lantern.
He's deadly but he's fun.Copy !req
162. He's overwhelmed with greed and he'll kill
for it. He's still funny because of that.Copy !req
163. He comes to Earth and finds out
there's a being called Santa Claus...Copy !req
164. who gives people things that you list.Copy !req
165. When Larfleeze finds out
there's a being called Santa Claus...Copy !req
166. that answers your Christmas list,
he makes a giant list.Copy !req
167. When Santa doesn't show up,
he gets pissed off and says:Copy !req
168. "I'm gonna kill him."
And he goes on a hunt for Santa Claus.Copy !req
169. There's very few characters
that you can pull that story off with.Copy !req
170. Larfleeze is one of those characters.Copy !req
171. But while villains can be fun,
as well as fascinating...Copy !req
172. they're also a direct reflection
of our own fears.Copy !req
173. They force us to examine
the deep and personal terrors...Copy !req
174. that we are unable to face
in our everyday lives.Copy !req
175. When writers create supervillains...Copy !req
176. when children imagine monsters...Copy !req
177. they're trying to make sense
of a scary world.Copy !req
178. They're trying to feel strong.Copy !req
179. They're trying to do so many things.Copy !req
180. Villains in some ways, you know,
should reflect our fears and our concerns...Copy !req
181. you know, both as individuals
and as a society.Copy !req
182. They change over time.Copy !req
183. But the more important thing the villains
present is our more global fear...Copy !req
184. our more human fear, our fear of loss...Copy !req
185. our fear of death, our fear of the unknown.Copy !req
186. The villain represents basically
everything that we fear...Copy !req
187. or everything that we need
to fight against.Copy !req
188. Parallax is interesting because the idea that
it's a world-eater, that scares the hell out of us.Copy !req
189. At any moment
some universal malevolence...Copy !req
190. can come and take us over.
That's a pretty scary thing.Copy !req
191. By the time they were doing
the Superman show, I was an adult.Copy !req
192. But whenever you'd watch
those Darkseid episodes, I'd be like:Copy !req
193. "Oh, God, this is gonna be bad."
You know...Copy !req
194. anybody who can make Superman bleed...Copy !req
195. is somebody that you don't wanna
be trifled with.Copy !req
196. Because what are any of us
really gonna do against him?Copy !req
197. I really made Sinestro
and the Sinestro Corps embody fear.Copy !req
198. They're cosmic terrorists.Copy !req
199. Their mission when they come
is to destroy Coast City.Copy !req
200. "We're gonna make Green Lantern's
town a crater...Copy !req
201. and a symbol of fear,
so that nobody will ever come back here."Copy !req
202. Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps says,
"We're not afraid. We're gonna fight your fear."Copy !req
203. Hal flies to his brother's house and his brother
is there with his wife and his kids.Copy !req
204. Hal Jordan says to his brother,
"You have to leave right now."Copy !req
205. His brother says,
“We're not going anywhere. We believe in you.Copy !req
206. We're not afraid.
We're standing our ground."Copy !req
207. And suddenly another Green Lantern says,
"Hal, look outside."Copy !req
208. And someone's put a green light
in their window...Copy !req
209. and another person puts a green light
in their window.Copy !req
210. And suddenly there's green lights
all throughout the city...Copy !req
211. as a symbolic gesture to Hal.Copy !req
212. And for me, that was a recharge moment
for Hal Jordan overcoming fear...Copy !req
213. but it was also a moment, emotionally,
for me saying, like:Copy !req
214. "This is how we deal with fear.
We take a stand."Copy !req
215. They're our personal demons.Copy !req
216. Like, they're the fears we have
about ourselves...Copy !req
217. come to life
in these incredibly colorful and bright...Copy !req
218. and sometimes funny,
sometimes terrifying ways.Copy !req
219. All of us face those things in our lives,
where you face adversity in some way...Copy !req
220. where you're positive
you're not gonna make it through this one.Copy !req
221. And I think we've all been there at some point
where you're just thinking to yourself:Copy !req
222. "I am not capable of overcoming this."Copy !req
223. Whether it's a small day-to-day thing
or it's a big thing.Copy !req
224. And what villains do is they represent
those fears on this macro way...Copy !req
225. I think, for the hero, who's the
representative of all the things we think—Copy !req
226. We hope that humanity is capable
of or we're capable of at our best.Copy !req
227. Then when the hero overcomes those things
at the end because they have to...Copy !req
228. it says to us that we can too.Copy !req
229. Every myth has a creation.Copy !req
230. Just like our heroes,
every villain must have an origin.Copy !req
231. And what qualities do we see
in the most popular villains?Copy !req
232. Instilling a sense of fear simply isn't enough.Copy !req
233. Villains must be layered, nuanced.Copy !req
234. We must ask ourselves:
What makes a bad guy, a bad guy?Copy !req
235. You wanna give your villain idiosyncrasies,
and you want to make him strangely weird...Copy !req
236. and interesting psychologically.Copy !req
237. Those kind of characters lend themselves
to having stories told about them...Copy !req
238. because their bones are so strong.Copy !req
239. You can put, you know...Copy !req
240. You can hang a lot of meat on them.Copy !req
241. They have their own path
and they all have their own story.Copy !req
242. And, you know,
while their powers may be similar...Copy !req
243. hopefully their personalities are not.Copy !req
244. If a villain is great-looking
or is great just visually...Copy !req
245. but doesn't have a back-story...Copy !req
246. it really takes away
from enjoying its run.Copy !req
247. The wonderful thing
about Batman: The Animated Series...Copy !req
248. is that they not only featured...Copy !req
249. and celebrated a number
of DC villains in Gotham City...Copy !req
250. but introduced a number of origin stories.Copy !req
251. Of course, we have this back-story
of Harvey Dent...Copy !req
252. and his struggles with his anger.Copy !req
253. We even get to see this session
he has with a psychiatrist.Copy !req
254. And the psychiatrist puts him
into this state of hypnotism...Copy !req
255. and asks him to draw up his alter ego.Copy !req
256. He calls it Big Bad Harvey.Copy !req
257. Later in the episode, of course, we see
his full development into Two-Face.Copy !req
258. And I'll never forget that moment...Copy !req
259. where he breaks open the door
out of his hospital room.Copy !req
260. He then turns at the same time
that there's lightning...Copy !req
261. and we see the image
of the second half of his face.Copy !req
262. Black Hand really came into his own...Copy !req
263. in Green Lantern 43
when his origin was revealed.Copy !req
264. Taking a character like Black Hand
who was a minor villain...Copy !req
265. and looking at him and saying,
"if we have an emotional spectrum..-...Copy !req
266. and all the colors represent life...Copy !req
267. the absence of color has to represent death.
There's got to be black."Copy !req
268. Black Hand, by becoming the avatar of death,
having a black ring...Copy !req
269. committing suicide to become
a zombified Black Lantern...Copy !req
270. which is one of the best moments
Doug Mahnke's ever drawn in his life.Copy !req
271. It's creepy, twisted, dark.Copy !req
272. Once people actually got to get inside
his head a little bit and see who he was...Copy !req
273. then it became much more
of a connection.Copy !req
274. A hero's motive is usually straightforward:Copy !req
275. Save the day, serve justice, defeat evil.Copy !req
276. Villains, however,
are driven by a variety of forces.Copy !req
277. It could be as grandiose
as taking over the world...Copy !req
278. or as direct as
forcing others to share their agony.Copy !req
279. They can be much more complex, personal
and often even relatable.Copy !req
280. What makes a villain the most memorable is
the reason they're doing whatever it is they do.Copy !req
281. It's not the crime.
We've seen a hundred thousand crimes.Copy !req
282. We've seen Luthor break into banks.Copy !req
283. We've seen all these characters
do weird things.Copy !req
284. But why they do it.Copy !req
285. Every one of us is driven by, you know,
our own singular, you know, needs and wants.Copy !req
286. So are villains.Copy !req
287. A character like the Anti-Monitor
from Crisis on Infinite Earths...Copy !req
288. needs to absorb all the universes.Copy !req
289. And that's the only way he could survive.Copy !req
290. Behold the definition of true power.Copy !req
291. He's not doing it
because he cares at all about life.Copy !req
292. And that makes him frightening
because you can't reason with him.Copy !req
293. He's not an intellect
that you can talk to and say:Copy !req
294. "Don't you realize
you're doing something bad?Copy !req
295. Can't we figure out something else to do?"
He's not interested. He has one need.Copy !req
296. When I created Clayface III at the behest
of the late Julius Schwartz...Copy !req
297. I came up with a character
who was a monster...Copy !req
298. because he had screwed up.Copy !req
299. He was someone born with acromegaly,
essentially the elephant man disease.Copy !req
300. And in trying to fix himself...Copy !req
301. became somebody who basically
can draw the calcium out of your body...Copy !req
302. and reduce people
to little clay-like masses.Copy !req
303. But he didn't want to.
It's just how he survived.Copy !req
304. There may also be, certainly,
revenge involved.Copy !req
305. A lot of villains feel that they've been wronged
in some way...Copy !req
306. whether it's by society
or a loved one or the police.Copy !req
307. With Mr. Freeze, when we developed the
character for Batman: The Animated Series...Copy !req
308. I thought, "Somebody that cold
has to be that cold for a reason."Copy !req
309. Essentially he had some funding to carry out
his research to cure his wife, Nora.Copy !req
310. And the man who pulled that funding...Copy !req
311. he then became the focus
of Mr. Freeze's evil-doing.Copy !req
312. His mission is to go after the one man
who took away the love of his life.Copy !req
313. He actually says to Batman:Copy !req
314. "This is my sole purpose,
and if you get in the way, you'll pay for it."Copy !req
315. Which kind of implies,
“Look, if you just step aside, I won't harm you."Copy !req
316. As a villain, you can argue
whether he's a villain or not.Copy !req
317. Atrocitus, he was motivated
by anger at the Guardians of the Universe.Copy !req
318. His family got killed
because the Guardians of the Universe...Copy !req
319. they created these manhunters, androids...Copy !req
320. which were their predecessors
to the Green Lantern Corps.Copy !req
321. Atrocitus skips over
the denial stage of grief...Copy !req
322. goes into anger and stays there.
Forget going into the later ones.Copy !req
323. The only bargain he makes is to stay angry...Copy !req
324. and avenge his family
by going after the Guardians however he can.Copy !req
325. That's why the Joker is so interesting,
because he sort of doesn't have a motive.Copy !req
326. He knows he's crazy.Copy !req
327. Most of the crazy villains, most of the villains
who in comics, who are insane...Copy !req
328. have no idea they are.Copy !req
329. But the Joker is aware of it and he loves it.Copy !req
330. He loves the concept that he is chaos
to Batman's logic and order.Copy !req
331. And, obviously, we have the most recent
incarnation on the big screen.Copy !req
332. Heath Ledger's Joker
is a perfect example of that.Copy !req
333. And he even says it.
He's a dog chasing a car.Copy !req
334. And when he catches it, he doesn't—
He doesn't know what he's doing.Copy !req
335. He just sort of does things.Copy !req
336. With Lex Luthor, he just wants power.Copy !req
337. But how does he attain it?Copy !req
338. How many ways does he have to go?Copy !req
339. Why is he jealous of Superman?Copy !req
340. Because he wants to be
more powerful than Superman.Copy !req
341. Those self-made men
tend to feel that they have license.Copy !req
342. Tend to feel that they're superior
to everybody else.Copy !req
343. He has these personality characteristics
that one would consider narcissistic...Copy !req
344. in the sense that he has this element
of superiority...Copy !req
345. that he is more powerful than others.
Thinks that he's more intelligent than others.Copy !req
346. And, therefore, believes that he deserves
more than what other people deserve.Copy !req
347. He is like the pinnacle of humanity.
He has made himself the best man.Copy !req
348. And then there's this alien
that's better than him.Copy !req
349. I did the revision of Luthor
back in the 1980s.Copy !req
350. I turned him into a character
who brought jobs to Metropolis.Copy !req
351. He provided museums
and philharmonic orchestras...Copy !req
352. and did all this stuff
as long as everyone knew he was the best.Copy !req
353. He wanted the power. He wanted the control.
And he was happy.Copy !req
354. He was delighted
because everyone honored him.Copy !req
355. And then Superman came along,
who could fly.Copy !req
356. It was ego.Copy !req
357. "I am the person
who looks down on everybody else."Copy !req
358. And the first time Superman and he meet,
Superman says:Copy !req
359. "I'll be around.
If you wanna find me, just look up."Copy !req
360. And suddenly there was somebody who was
over Luthor and he couldn't deal with that.Copy !req
361. I think that's also part of the ego
is that villains love to hear themselves talk.Copy !req
362. They love to hear their theories
as expounded upon by themselves.Copy !req
363. The Penguin made a comment
in one comic book:Copy !req
364. "What's the point in committing the perfect
crime if no one knows it was you who did it?"Copy !req
365. Lex Luther's brain, as evil as it is, is brilliant.Copy !req
366. Once he had him
and he was incapacitated...Copy !req
367. to the degree that Lex could do anything
he wanted with him...Copy !req
368. he could aggrandize himself in front of him.
"Let me tell you how brilliant I am."Copy !req
369. You were great in your day, Superman,
but it just stands to reason.Copy !req
370. When it came time to cash in your chips...Copy !req
371. this old, diseased, maniac,
would be your banker.Copy !req
372. Mind over muscle.Copy !req
373. The grandiose nature of the villains
figures into every one of those key aspects.Copy !req
374. Whatever their mission is in life,
the main thing they want to do.Copy !req
375. The one who wants to get the money,
he wants to do it in the outlandish way...Copy !req
376. the creative, different way.Copy !req
377. When you think of some of the more
flamboyant villains in the DC Universe...Copy !req
378. you sort of think about:Copy !req
379. Would they really be happy
with all the money in the world?Copy !req
380. Would they really be happy
with running the city?Copy !req
381. You know, it seems to be they're much happier
trying to take the city than actually having it.Copy !req
382. That's why you don't see a lot of books
about supervillains now running city hall...Copy !req
383. or "Now I'm the mayor" or, you know...Copy !req
384. What are they gonna do with,
you know, a billion dollars?Copy !req
385. So I do think it's sort of more the pursuit.Copy !req
386. It's not enough for the Riddler to rob a bank
or steal a diamond.Copy !req
387. He's got to drop clues on his way
to robbing a bank or stealing a diamond.Copy !req
388. The Riddler's probably the most self-defeating
villain in the history of comic books...Copy !req
389. because he's always providing Batman
with a clue to his comeuppance.Copy !req
390. He's obviously got some deep, dark...Copy !req
391. damaged psychological reason that,
you know, deep down he wants to be caught.Copy !req
392. He wants to be punished.Copy !req
393. Otherwise he wouldn't leave ridiculous
riddles to be left for Batman to solve.Copy !req
394. The journey toward evil follows a long road...Copy !req
395. with many possible avenues.Copy !req
396. But for the fallen, the question remains:Copy !req
397. Were they born bad
or did they willingly turn down the dark path?Copy !req
398. Is it the end result of a lifetime of suffering...Copy !req
399. or did one horrible incident
forever push them over the edge?Copy !req
400. Is there real evil?
Does evil in itself really exist?Copy !req
401. Or it is always a reaction to something?
Is it a reaction to some childhood trauma?Copy !req
402. There are a number of different, I guess,
causes or trajectories toward evil-doing...Copy !req
403. or toward a life of villainy.Copy !req
404. The best villains probably are born bad.Copy !req
405. You want them to be, at least.Copy !req
406. There's always, like, maybe they were born bad,
and then you had horrible incidents occur...Copy !req
407. that sort of kept them down that path.Copy !req
408. We have yet really to have true examples
of these particular experiences...Copy !req
409. that the Joker, Harvey Dent
and other villains have gone through.Copy !req
410. So I think there is a lot of room
for the fictional writing...Copy !req
411. and the fictional exploration
of one event creating—Copy !req
412. Completely redefining a person
where it turns them to villains.Copy !req
413. I created a character called Man-Bat.Copy !req
414. It's this guy who is a Batman fan.Copy !req
415. He is a genius. He is a scientist.Copy !req
416. Works in museums.
But he's just a little off.Copy !req
417. And he thinks
that if he creates a serum out of bats...Copy !req
418. that he can give it as a gift to Batman...Copy !req
419. and Batman will have the attributes
of a bat.Copy !req
420. Wouldn't that be great?Copy !req
421. But somebody has to test it.Copy !req
422. So he tests it on himself.Copy !req
423. It's Jekyll and Hyde.Copy !req
424. He's turned into this creature.
He becomes a man-bat.Copy !req
425. You can say, "Man-Bat is a villain."
No, he's not a villain.Copy !req
426. He can be manipulated by villains,
but he's a good guy.Copy !req
427. In fact, he loves Batman.Copy !req
428. He thinks Batman
is the greatest hero on earth.Copy !req
429. And he wants to be like Batman.Copy !req
430. But if he's like Batman, he becomes
a drug addict then becomes this monster.Copy !req
431. You will bow down before me!Copy !req
432. First you, and then one day, your heirs!Copy !req
433. General Zod
is a fantastic villain for Superman.Copy !req
434. While some of his actions aren't justifiable, you
completely understand why he is the man he is.Copy !req
435. You know, someone like the Scarecrow...Copy !req
436. the fact that he was bullied
into submission...Copy !req
437. and picked on
by way more powerful people than him...Copy !req
438. and he was so scared to live his life because
he had this constant air of fear around him.Copy !req
439. It drove him to figure out
why that fear existed within him.Copy !req
440. And then at the end of the day,
how he could inflict it upon other people.Copy !req
441. You're writing it and you see:Copy !req
442. "Why can't you just go left
instead of right at this seminal moment?"Copy !req
443. That kind of story, I think,
is equally inspiring and exciting to read...Copy !req
444. for different reasons, but because mostly
you see that making the wrong choice...Copy !req
445. or falling victim to sort of difficult
circumstances and letting them turn you...Copy !req
446. and twist you that way is something that
gets you nowhere but Blackgate or Arkham...Copy !req
447. or, you know, the Phantom Zone
or that sort of thing. Heh, heh.Copy !req
448. Consider this.Copy !req
449. The function and role of the hero and the villain
is all simply a matter of perspective.Copy !req
450. If we reversed focus and considered
the story from the point of view of the villain...Copy !req
451. wouldn't they be the hero
and the hero the villain?Copy !req
452. You have to think that pretty much
everyone's a hero in their own story.Copy !req
453. The villains who are really
interesting characters...Copy !req
454. have an affirmative reason
for what they're doing.Copy !req
455. Their strength comes from...Copy !req
456. absolute certainty, 100 percent certainty,
that they are correct.Copy !req
457. If they're uncertain about what they're doing,
then they're not interesting characters.Copy !req
458. Perspective of ants.
You know, do ants see us as giant villains?Copy !req
459. We're walking around. It's ruining my picnic,
so I'm just stomping on ants. I'm not thinking.Copy !req
460. To someone's point of view down there...Copy !req
461. we are these giant gods who are villainous
and are destroying their civilization.Copy !req
462. So it's really just about your point of view.Copy !req
463. Sinestro wanted to control things
so much on Korugar, his home world...Copy !req
464. he wanted it to be safe for everybody that
he started to instill fear like, "I'm in control."Copy !req
465. Sinestro is a villain who really did see himself
as a hero and couldn't believe...Copy !req
466. that he was being chopped off at the knees
by the Guardians all the time...Copy !req
467. and being perceived to be someone
who wasn't looking out...Copy !req
468. for the better interest of the universe
and his own people.Copy !req
469. And, eventually, it pushed Sinestro
into a dark place...Copy !req
470. where he finally just had
to use his powers...Copy !req
471. to bring to light
what he thought was the best thing.Copy !req
472. And Hal Jordan ultimately had to stop
this guy who had gone renegade.Copy !req
473. So it just set them on a collision course.Copy !req
474. Lex doesn't perceive himself
as a bad person.Copy !req
475. He doesn't perceive himself as anything...Copy !req
476. but the agent of order and civilization.Copy !req
477. You hold the future of the entire planet
in your hands.Copy !req
478. - I'm here to take it back.
- Lex?Copy !req
479. You'll never threaten the world again.Copy !req
480. I think Luthor is correct
in the way he views the world.Copy !req
481. He's right. Superman is an alien
and we shouldn't trust him.Copy !req
482. He has a lot of people on his side today...Copy !req
483. in that I think in the '50s,
during the Eisenhower years...Copy !req
484. the idea of a superman
with all these incredible powers...Copy !req
485. that we can't stop even if we wanted to, but
he's a benign force for good, that's reassuring.Copy !req
486. In today's day and age,
I don't know if that's as reassuring.Copy !req
487. So the idea that there's a guy
who is a businessman...Copy !req
488. you know, a tycoon
who's looking out for his fellow humans...Copy !req
489. against a threat that actually
can't be contained or controlled...Copy !req
490. I think it really speaks to
I think a lot of people's fears...Copy !req
491. about authority and power today.Copy !req
492. In modern story...Copy !req
493. just as it is in fife...Copy !req
494. the choice between right and wrong
often isn't so cut and dry.Copy !req
495. Heroes are flawed,
sometimes villains justified.Copy !req
496. But it's the villain
and sometimes society itself...Copy !req
497. that further blurs the line.Copy !req
498. The same way there's a thin line
between love and hate, to me...Copy !req
499. the best heroes are the ones
that probably act a little villainous.Copy !req
500. And the best villains are the ones
that might have martyr complexes.Copy !req
501. Where we are in comics right now, we probably
examine the line between good and evil more...Copy !req
502. than ever had been done before.Copy !req
503. Batman is always trying to maintain
that control within himself.Copy !req
504. You know,
“This is how my parents were killed.Copy !req
505. I'm gonna make sure that
doesn't happen to anybody else."Copy !req
506. He is a guy who's fighting
to not become a bad guy.Copy !req
507. Had it not been for the humanizing
anchors of his humanity, Alfred...Copy !req
508. and a few other key people
keeping him in line...Copy !req
509. young Bruce Wayne, traumatized...Copy !req
510. by witnessing the murder of his parents
before his eyes...Copy !req
511. could easily
have gone the dark side of that line.Copy !req
512. All I've ever wanted to do is kill him.Copy !req
513. A day doesn't go by
when I don't think about subjecting him...Copy !req
514. to every horrendous torture
he's dealt out to others.Copy !req
515. And then end him.Copy !req
516. But if I do that, if I allow myself
to go down into that place...Copy !req
517. I'll never come back.Copy !req
518. There's sort of a power struggle
going on with the villains too.Copy !req
519. There's the character
that's sort of more of a gray nature...Copy !req
520. who was originally maybe intended
to be a villain...Copy !req
521. who cleaned up his act a little bit or who
is just so engaging that you like him a lot.Copy !req
522. You look at a character like Lobo.Copy !req
523. Here's this guy who should not be called
a hero by any stretch of the imagination...Copy !req
524. but he's got just enough honor,
I guess you'd say...Copy !req
525. like, you know, he's a bounty hunter.Copy !req
526. If he goes after somebody,
for better or for worse, he'll honor the deal.Copy !req
527. And he'll track down the guy
and bring him in.Copy !req
528. The appeal of Lobo is just the over-the-top
black comedy and violence...Copy !req
529. I think the character brings.Copy !req
530. You know, he's a badass biker
from outer space.Copy !req
531. Who doesn't love somebody like that?Copy !req
532. Deadshot is nice and simple and clear.Copy !req
533. He's like a bullet. He goes from point A
to point B and he doesn't waver.Copy !req
534. He's got layers to him.
He's not just doing this for the sake of fun.Copy !req
535. He's doing it because this is the thing
he's good at. He's good at killing people.Copy !req
536. And he only does it for money.Copy !req
537. With a character like Deathstroke,
I actually did not create him to be a villain.Copy !req
538. I created him thinking he was a character
who was morally ambiguous...Copy !req
539. who was doing certain things
for his own reasons.Copy !req
540. He was a hunter, he was a mercenary,
he was an assassin...Copy !req
541. but always on a political, for-hire basis.Copy !req
542. And then because his son was trapped by the
H.l.V.E., he was forced into becoming a villain.Copy !req
543. He didn't want to be, and no matter
how many times he wants to get out of it...Copy !req
544. he can't because he has a certain
code of ethics...Copy !req
545. that says he promised
to complete his son's mission...Copy !req
546. and he can't stop until he does,
even though he knows it's not his mission...Copy !req
547. and even though he knows it's wrong.Copy !req
548. Amanda Waller is one of the
greatest characters in DC comics.Copy !req
549. She is the black ops government leader
of the Suicide Squad...Copy !req
550. the program that recruits supervillains
and forces them to do missions for them.Copy !req
551. And she is manipulative, super smart.Copy !req
552. Amanda Waller can only be viewed as a
bad guy because she makes the tough choices.Copy !req
553. That's the reason why.Copy !req
554. And what she's doing is she is willing
to sacrifice the individual for the greater good.Copy !req
555. Amanda Waller continues to be a presence
in the DC universe.Copy !req
556. She's created a Justice League
called the Justice League of America...Copy !req
557. that is designed to take out
the real Justice League if need be.Copy !req
558. She's prepared for the worst
because she's experienced the worst.Copy !req
559. She has a very clear moral line and whether
you agree with it or not, it doesn't shift.Copy !req
560. That's why you'll have that discussion
going back and forth...Copy !req
561. of whether Amanda Waller
is a hero or villain.Copy !req
562. Heroes typically have a strong moral code.Copy !req
563. "I Will not kill."Copy !req
564. "I will uphold the law."Copy !req
565. But just because villains commit crimes...Copy !req
566. does not mean
they are completely without principles.Copy !req
567. There does exist honor among thieves,
even if that honor is warped and twisted.Copy !req
568. I don't think you can generalize
about villains...Copy !req
569. the same way as you can generalize
about heroes across the board.Copy !req
570. You know, I do think that there
are some villains who have a moral code...Copy !req
571. or have a line
that they personally will not cross.Copy !req
572. Two-Face, where he basically lets his morality
be decided by a flip of a coin.Copy !req
573. Sinestro certainly has a code of ethics
he thinks he's following.Copy !req
574. And in a strange way he is following it.Copy !req
575. He believes in the Green Lantern Corps
so much he's willing to be a villain to them.Copy !req
576. Allow me to introduce myself.Copy !req
577. I am he who is called Ra's al Ghul.Copy !req
578. Ra's al Ghul knows who Batman is.Copy !req
579. He can give it away.Copy !req
580. He doesn't because there's sort
of a respect that he has for Batman.Copy !req
581. And he has this hope that one day
Batman will come to his side...Copy !req
582. so he doesn't destroy Batman that way.Copy !req
583. Specifically, the Rogues, they won't kill
somebody. That's where they draw the line.Copy !req
584. They do have their own— It may be
a warped code, but they have their code.Copy !req
585. If you go to the Rogues and say,
“You have a chance to kill the Flash.Copy !req
586. Here's the plan. This is how we're gonna
kill the Flash. We're gonna kill the Flash."Copy !req
587. Captain Cold would be like,
"You're out of your mind.Copy !req
588. If we kill the Flash
the whole Justice League's on top us.Copy !req
589. We don't need that right now.Copy !req
590. We have this thing going. We don't wanna
kill the Flash. He's just in our way."Copy !req
591. There's versions of the Rogues
who have been more bloodthirsty.Copy !req
592. Their versions, I don't respond to because
I don't think that's who the Rogues are.Copy !req
593. The last thing they would ever do
is kill the Flash.Copy !req
594. That doesn't mean
they're uninteresting to watch...Copy !req
595. or uninteresting characters
for the Flash to go against.Copy !req
596. That makes them more interesting.
What are their motivations?Copy !req
597. The best villains represent
the counterpoint to the hero.Copy !req
598. A polar opposite in many respects...Copy !req
599. but also bearing subtle
or sometimes striking similarities.Copy !req
600. The villains often mirror
the hero's dark reflection...Copy !req
601. the result of a divergent path,
a different road taken.Copy !req
602. I think a good nemesis for a hero
needs to have some of the hero in him...Copy !req
603. have some of the qualities
of a hero in him.Copy !req
604. You are defined as much
by the dark side of the mythology...Copy !req
605. as you are defined
by this light side of mythology.Copy !req
606. So for every mythology about demons,
there need to be angels and vice versa.Copy !req
607. You need to have a degree of polar opposite.Copy !req
608. At the same time,
there needs to be those things...Copy !req
609. that make them mirror images
of themselves.Copy !req
610. You have Ocean Master
who is kind of a mirror of Aquaman.Copy !req
611. He is an Atlantean king, like Aquaman,
but he's Aquaman gone wrong.Copy !req
612. He's "What if Aquaman
went down a different path?"Copy !req
613. In the case of Flash, it's Reverse-Flash.Copy !req
614. Literally, it's a reverse version of the Flash,
a mirror of him.Copy !req
615. And then the opposite
would be Captain Cold.Copy !req
616. On first blush you're like,
“Oh, it's ice. He slips."Copy !req
617. You look at Captain Cold
and you analyze him a bit more.Copy !req
618. When introduced, he was called
“The Man Who Mastered Absolute Zero."Copy !req
619. And absolute zero
means zero atomic motion.Copy !req
620. That means the atoms do not move.Copy !req
621. You know, when things are colder,
they're slower on the atomic level.Copy !req
622. So that's why Captain Cold, to me,
always captured...Copy !req
623. the essence of an opposite
of the Flash.Copy !req
624. When you look at somebody like Batman...Copy !req
625. Catwoman is certainly
the sexual challenge to him.Copy !req
626. Riddler is the intellectual challenge.Copy !req
627. Penguin is almost a mockery
of what Bruce Wayne is on the social scene.Copy !req
628. And the Joker is the horrific version
of what Batman is to ordinary people.Copy !req
629. Whereas Batman scares criminals, the Joker
scares and horrifies the ordinary people.Copy !req
630. Black Adam is another
good opposite number character.Copy !req
631. Kind of got a costume that's similar
to Shazam's costume, but it's black.Copy !req
632. He's also another member of a police force
that has kind of fallen from grace...Copy !req
633. the Wizards Protector Society, which is what
Shazam is and what Black Adam was.Copy !req
634. The Crime Syndicate characters
that have been around for decades...Copy !req
635. they come from a version—
A parallel Earth, a version of our Earth...Copy !req
636. where everyone who's good is bad
and everyone who is bad is good.Copy !req
637. And so you've got
an evil Superman in Ultraman.Copy !req
638. Then you have Owlman,
who is a dark version of Batman.Copy !req
639. And Superwoman,
who is a dark version of Wonder Woman.Copy !req
640. You have Johnny Quick and Power Ring.
Power Ring is this Green Lantern...Copy !req
641. who's a coward.Copy !req
642. The Crime Syndicate represent the Justice
League completely flipped on its head...Copy !req
643. and if they were horrible, horrible,
evil people.Copy !req
644. In terms of what they can accomplish
and who they can defeat...Copy !req
645. they're on par with the Justice League,
but their goals are so perverted...Copy !req
646. compared to the honor and the morality
that the Justice League have.Copy !req
647. Which leaves the governments of the world
with two choices, bow down to us or die.Copy !req
648. The best supervillains that resonate the most,
they do it on two levels.Copy !req
649. They do it— How they psychologically
reflect or challenge your superhero...Copy !req
650. and then also, in the story,
what they've done to affect the superhero's life.Copy !req
651. If there is not that personal connection,
it just weakens it.Copy !req
652. It just becomes another person trying
to do something dastardly.Copy !req
653. When well-paired, the villain's been able
to get inside the superhero's head.Copy !req
654. It's almost as if he knows precisely what makes
them vulnerable, what their greatest fear is.Copy !req
655. When they make it personal
and can make it personal...Copy !req
656. when the villains have the knowledge to
make it personal and know your inner secrets...Copy !req
657. that's when things get real.Copy !req
658. Talia al Ghul, she fell in love with Batman.Copy !req
659. So when it comes to the point
of killing Batman...Copy !req
660. many times in many stories,
she draws the line there.Copy !req
661. She will not kill him.
She wants him for her own.Copy !req
662. Star Sapphire was not only Hal Jordan's boss,
but also girlfriend.Copy !req
663. And when she was manipulated...Copy !req
664. she did not know consciously
that she had become Star Sapphire.Copy !req
665. Then you've got this interesting dynamic...Copy !req
666. of when he ultimately finds out that this
is his girlfriend and he's got to battle her.Copy !req
667. And how does he battle her
when she's so smart without hurting her?Copy !req
668. That kind of conflict of people
who were once friends and become enemies...Copy !req
669. you know, it's almost like the Greek
tragedies, these enormous stories of betrayal.Copy !req
670. I just ended my run
with Green Lantern 20.Copy !req
671. And as I was wrapping it up the story kind
of organically revolved around not only Hal...Copy !req
672. but Hal and Sinestro and that relationship
is really key to Green Lantern.Copy !req
673. There is this moment where Sinestro,
who blames the Guardians of the Universe...Copy !req
674. who have done all these horrible things...Copy !req
675. against the Corps they created—
They tried to destroy it.Copy !req
676. They're ultimately the big bad guys
of the piece.Copy !req
677. And Sinestro vows to destroy them.
"I'm going to kill them one by one."Copy !req
678. And Hal says, "I can't let you do that."
And he grabs him.Copy !req
679. And Sinestro says,
"You think they can still be saved?Copy !req
680. You think that they can be redeemed?"Copy !req
681. And Hal says,
“This isn't about them, this is about you."Copy !req
682. He says, "I wanna save you.Copy !req
683. You don't have to lower yourself to this level.
You don't have to kill them.Copy !req
684. You can be a great Green Lantern."Copy !req
685. And he goes, "Because I believe in you."Copy !req
686. And Sinestro looks at him and he says,
“Jordan, it's too late. I've already killed them."Copy !req
687. And you reveal that Sinestro has already
wiped out the Guardians, one by one by one.Copy !req
688. And Sinestro's like, "I'm leaving forever.Copy !req
689. But before I go, you had a question
you wanted to ask me."Copy !req
690. And Hal says, you know,
"Were we ever friends, Sinestro?"Copy !req
691. And Sinestro, who has never called him
by his first name—Copy !req
692. He's always called him Jordan.Copy !req
693. —Says, "You know, that's the tragedy
of all this, Jordan."Copy !req
694. He goes, "Hal, we'll always be friends."Copy !req
695. Might is not reserved solely for the just.Copy !req
696. While heroes can exhibit
incredible strength or skills...Copy !req
697. villains may possess abilities equal to
or even greater than their foes.Copy !req
698. It's not enough for villains merely
to offer a challenge to the heroes...Copy !req
699. but, rather, they must present
the all-too-real possibility...Copy !req
700. that good might not triumph over evil.Copy !req
701. You're defined by the height
of the mountain you climb.Copy !req
702. And so the higher the mountain,
the more the epic struggle it is to climb that...Copy !req
703. the greater the adventure,
the greater the hero.Copy !req
704. If I have the powers of the gods,
then am I not a god myself?Copy !req
705. A good villain,
you have to believe that he can win.Copy !req
706. If you have Superman fighting
a common mugger, that's not interesting.Copy !req
707. You know that Superman's gonna win.Copy !req
708. The idea that Lex Luthor can out-think
Superman, that he is smarter than Superman...Copy !req
709. and no matter what Superman's powers are,
Lex Luthor can think of a way to defeat him...Copy !req
710. makes that dynamic
between the pair of them brilliant.Copy !req
711. It's why we created Ra's al Ghul.Copy !req
712. You need a Moriarty for Sherlock Holmes.Copy !req
713. If Sherlock Holmes is superior
to every criminal out there...Copy !req
714. what's his value?Copy !req
715. So we want Sherlock Holmes
to have a Moriarty.Copy !req
716. We want Batman to have a Ra's al Ghul.Copy !req
717. And we want it to be neck and neck.Copy !req
718. Superman has all his powers
because he's on Earth...Copy !req
719. and watching Zod discover
that he has those same powers...Copy !req
720. I think Superman and Zod
could fight for centuries.Copy !req
721. And basically, it just comes down to...Copy !req
722. The person who's gonna win that fight
is the person who puts the most heart into it.Copy !req
723. When I was writing Superman,
I created the character called Mongul...Copy !req
724. who has become very big
in the mythos since.Copy !req
725. Basically, because I felt,
"All right, this is silly.Copy !req
726. You've got a guy here who moves planets...Copy !req
727. and he has to fight a guy
he has to outsmart to beat.Copy !req
728. What about somebody
who can kick his butt?"Copy !req
729. So I came up with Mongul,
who was bigger and strong and taller.Copy !req
730. And he gives somebody
a physical challenge.Copy !req
731. Somebody Superman has to work to beat,
just on a hands-on basis.Copy !req
732. Darkseid is a great villain just because
of the amount of power that he holds.Copy !req
733. He's godlike and it's not easy to fight him
and come back alive.Copy !req
734. Going up against a character like Darkseid
really proves your hero's worth.Copy !req
735. The Anti-Monitor is a character like Darkseid,
one of our cosmic-level villains.Copy !req
736. He's a force of nature, a force of danger.Copy !req
737. Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor
can literally cross time and space...Copy !req
738. and they represent a threat that, again,
only a hero such as Superman...Copy !req
739. or a hero of that level can face and that's why
they are almost more frightening.Copy !req
740. Again, to an earlier point,
that's why we need a Superman...Copy !req
741. because they have to deal with threats
that we as common people can't.Copy !req
742. In a battle of equals,
the outcome always remains uncertain...Copy !req
743. and, on occasion,
fortune favors the fiendish.Copy !req
744. The villain escapes soot-free.Copy !req
745. They get their lucky break
or manage to land the killing blow.Copy !req
746. What does it mean when the hero falls in battle
and the villain emerges victorious?Copy !req
747. If it's all too clean and too neat,
why are we continuing to buy books?Copy !req
748. Why are we continuing
to read these stories...Copy !req
749. if we don't have the sense
that there's a certain danger...Copy !req
750. or a mortal danger to our hero?Copy !req
751. You know, we have a very clear statement.
We said, you know:Copy !req
752. "The hero has to win every time.Copy !req
753. The villain only has to win once."Copy !req
754. Even though we want ultimate good
to triumph over evil...Copy !req
755. there will be battles along the way
where there are setbacks.Copy !req
756. The question of "Can the villain succeed?"
Is always a tricky one.Copy !req
757. I believe they can...Copy !req
758. but obviously you have to make certain
that you're careful, the extent of it.Copy !req
759. There are different kinds of villains...Copy !req
760. and thus different kinds of impact
to what a villain does.Copy !req
761. Most of the criminal villains...Copy !req
762. the guys who are just out there
to rob a bank or do whatever...Copy !req
763. don't leave lasting impact.Copy !req
764. The ones like the Joker
potentially can affect an entire series.Copy !req
765. Don't you just love a happy ending?Copy !req
766. One of the risks of being a superhero
is that the people that you love...Copy !req
767. whether they're superheroes
themselves or citizens...Copy !req
768. you put them at risk.Copy !req
769. And so with Jason Todd,
essentially that is what happened...Copy !req
770. where the Joker murders him...Copy !req
771. and we have one of these rare instances
where a primary character was murdered.Copy !req
772. For Batman, that meant incredible guilt.Copy !req
773. That meant feeling
that he was responsible for the death...Copy !req
774. and that was what
the Joker essentially wanted.Copy !req
775. I always loved Black Manta.
You never knew his real name.Copy !req
776. He had that helmet that covered his face.
He killed Aquaman's baby.Copy !req
777. You have to be a real sick,
cold bastard to kill a baby.Copy !req
778. It felt so horrific to me
that I couldn't do anything...Copy !req
779. but look at this character and go,
“This is the coldest guy in the DC universe."Copy !req
780. In a lot of ways,
I think Black Manta to Aquaman...Copy !req
781. is very much akin to
what Bane is to the Batman.Copy !req
782. Both characters were very capable...Copy !req
783. and did cause great harm and pain
to the main characters.Copy !req
784. When Bane broke Bruce Wayne's back...Copy !req
785. it was proof positive to all the readers
around the world...Copy !req
786. that, yes, you got this right
all these years.Copy !req
787. This is a superhero
who has no superpowers...Copy !req
788. who, arguably, his greatest superpower
is his humanity...Copy !req
789. who is vulnerable...Copy !req
790. whom you can identify with
because he has no superpowers.Copy !req
791. And now, maybe for the first time,
we're taking that one extra step.Copy !req
792. We are crossing the Rubicon...Copy !req
793. and we are showing you,
and his back is broken...Copy !req
794. and Batman is either dead
or incapacitated.Copy !req
795. And I think readers still remember that.
Readers have a visceral reaction to that.Copy !req
796. This is someone who could hurt Batman.
This is someone Batman...Copy !req
797. even in his calmest of nights
wakes up and thinks:Copy !req
798. "This is a guy who once really severely hurt me,
who's still out there."Copy !req
799. So I think that's why Bane still has
that kind of attraction to readers.Copy !req
800. What Bane was to Batman,
Doomsday was to Superman...Copy !req
801. the embodiment
of brutal physical force.Copy !req
802. This is the great fear Superman has.Copy !req
803. Having a foe that he cannot find a way
to stop one way or another.Copy !req
804. He was designed to kill Superman.Copy !req
805. Every time he dies,
he comes back stronger...Copy !req
806. with whatever killed him now
no longer something that can kill him.Copy !req
807. Doomsday stirs up massive chaos...Copy !req
808. and delivers the hero
his biggest defeat ever.Copy !req
809. Doomsday kills Superman.Copy !req
810. I can't think of another villain where his
appearance on the stage is enough that...Copy !req
811. you know, the world is shaking.Copy !req
812. I would even argue that the death of Superman
story itself isn't even a story.Copy !req
813. It's just a fight scene.Copy !req
814. The story comes
from how the world reacts afterwards.Copy !req
815. When you get to see
the "Funeral For a Friend"...Copy !req
816. you see what Superman meant
to the world...Copy !req
817. which reflected what the real world
did a lot...Copy !req
818. when they thought we were really
gonna leave Superman dead.Copy !req
819. They went crazy sad.Copy !req
820. Any time you have that level
of tragedy impacting a DC character...Copy !req
821. we go through and show
the repercussions of that act...Copy !req
822. and how it affects the relationships
between all the heroes...Copy !req
823. and the impact it has
on all their friends and family.Copy !req
824. And so, to me, it's not done lightly.Copy !req
825. We don't have last episodes.
We have the next episode.Copy !req
826. And we do have to deal
with the repercussions.Copy !req
827. And, again,
if the bad guys are winning too often...Copy !req
828. then that hero doesn't deserve his own title
and he should probably stop being a hero.Copy !req
829. Superman died, but that wasn't
what the story was about.Copy !req
830. His death was a piece of that story.Copy !req
831. It was almost the beginning of the story.Copy !req
832. And then Dan Jurgens and Mike Carlin, all
those guys created Reign of the Supermen...Copy !req
833. which is all about Superman's return.Copy !req
834. With Batman breaking his back,
it was the same thing.Copy !req
835. How strong is Bruce Wayne?Copy !req
836. His back's broken,
but the city still needs him.Copy !req
837. So he heals himself
and comes back as Batman.Copy !req
838. He overcomes that.
But sometimes the villains do win...Copy !req
839. but it's only momentarily.Copy !req
840. Any general can tell you it's not the battles,
it's the ultimate war.Copy !req
841. And I think if you look at the grand scope
of the DC universe...Copy !req
842. it is ultimately good triumphing over evil.Copy !req
843. The best stories,
the stories that kind of last with you...Copy !req
844. are the ones that even though good wins,
there's a price to be had for that victory.Copy !req
845. I don't consider the hero having a victory
if it doesn't come at a cost.Copy !req
846. They have to have something sacrificed,
either personal or physical...Copy !req
847. that occurs every time they win.Copy !req
848. They have to be giving up something
of what they are in order to help mankind.Copy !req
849. They're making a sacrifice every time
they put that costume on...Copy !req
850. every time they're confronting something
and putting themselves at risk.Copy !req
851. So, therefore, there should be something
given up in their social life...Copy !req
852. their personal life, about who they are.Copy !req
853. They should be a little broken
because of what they've done.Copy !req
854. Only thing that keeps them going is that
they're doing something for the better good...Copy !req
855. and for helping other people.Copy !req
856. In the history of comics, DC in particular...Copy !req
857. there are not hundreds,
there are thousands of supervillains.Copy !req
858. Thousands of supervillains.Copy !req
859. And there's no way
we can talk about all of them.Copy !req
860. We can only talk about a fraction of them.Copy !req
861. I think that the very fact that we have
such a wide variety of villains...Copy !req
862. that can be anything from, you know...Copy !req
863. essentially, a high-tech bank robber
to someone like Darkseid who is a new god...Copy !req
864. is something I think strengthens
our universe.Copy !req
865. It gives us, you know,
a great spectrum of villainy.Copy !req
866. NARRATOR". This spectrum of evil
is diverse and dynamic...Copy !req
867. falling into a vast array of villainous
categories and characteristics.Copy !req
868. Indeed, the tropes and commonalities
of villainy are far-reaching.Copy !req
869. First off is the uncontrollable beast...Copy !req
870. that rages and rains down destruction
on those unfortunate souls caught in its path...Copy !req
871. the monster.Copy !req
872. My favorite monster is my—Copy !req
873. The classic monsters, the reason
that they're enduring and scary...Copy !req
874. is because they almost—
They look like people that you love...Copy !req
875. or that you care about or that you trust.Copy !req
876. Your neighbors, your wife, your mother.Copy !req
877. Then something infects them or turns them
into something that's an unstoppable force.Copy !req
878. Probably the most illustrious monster of the
Golden Age of comics was Solomon Grundy.Copy !req
879. He's an animated corpse.Copy !req
880. The heroes, even Batman,
is okay with trying to destroy Grundy...Copy !req
881. because he's dead already.Copy !req
882. I like Bizarro Superman
because he's just so off-the-wall.Copy !req
883. I mean, he's like just sort of
a crazy super powerful...Copy !req
884. almost Frankenstein monster
version of Superman.Copy !req
885. A villain as old as literature...Copy !req
886. but only heightened by the advent
of the atomic bomb...Copy !req
887. the mad scientist reflects our mistrust
and fear of technology...Copy !req
888. of advances that could undo us
as a people.Copy !req
889. New inventions come along
that could be...Copy !req
890. the most wonderful boon for humanity...Copy !req
891. or it could mean
the seeds of their destruction.Copy !req
892. So it figures that mad scientists
would be one of the true fears...Copy !req
893. incorporated into the personified forms
of supervillains.Copy !req
894. Doctor Sivana was a cackling,
bald, bespectacled scientist...Copy !req
895. who usually could be seen in a white coat.Copy !req
896. And he was responsible continually
for the near demise of Shazam.Copy !req
897. Before there was a Doctor Sivana,
for Lex Luthor...Copy !req
898. there was the Ultra-Humanite...Copy !req
899. who was sort of
like the very first mad scientist.Copy !req
900. He put his brain into other people's bodies,
or his consciousness in other people's bodies.Copy !req
901. So I believe, at one time,
he was a beautiful woman.Copy !req
902. He was different people
throughout his history.Copy !req
903. And now he's like a white ape-like creature.Copy !req
904. Charmed, I'm sure.Copy !req
905. But that just goes to show the power
of the mind over the matter.Copy !req
906. It doesn't matter what you look like
on the outside.Copy !req
907. As long as that brain survives,
that brain is going to be trouble for you.Copy !req
908. NARRATOR".
A militant general...Copy !req
909. a despot, a conqueror.Copy !req
910. This is a villain not far removed
from our world's own tyrants.Copy !req
911. We know them as the dictator,
or more simply the overlord.Copy !req
912. I have a duty to my people.Copy !req
913. And I will not allow anyone
to prevent me from carrying it out.Copy !req
914. With Zod, it's a pure power thing.Copy !req
915. There's something very moving
about the fact...Copy !req
916. that this story begins with him...Copy !req
917. basically seeing his entire planet explode...Copy !req
918. like his home evaporate into nothing.Copy !req
919. I can't imagine a bigger launching-off point
for a character...Copy !req
920. and then knowing that he'll do
whatever he can to make a new Krypton...Copy !req
921. because he can't help himself.Copy !req
922. It's the only option he has.Copy !req
923. It's what he was born to do.Copy !req
924. That's what he's been training to do
his whole life.Copy !req
925. He's fighting for Krypton, for his people.Copy !req
926. And he's a warrior.Copy !req
927. And so he's capable of committing, like...Copy !req
928. horrific crimes against humanity
and/or anything living.Copy !req
929. Starro the Conqueror is an alien starfish.Copy !req
930. Giant starfish that comes down on Earth
and seizes control city by city.Copy !req
931. Then in terms of seizing their minds, it was
right out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.Copy !req
932. Culled from our own
Mob-laden underworld...Copy !req
933. the criminal mastermind
is both power-hungry and immoral.Copy !req
934. Feeding their insatiable desire for control...Copy !req
935. they keep the public in fear
as they tighten their grasp on their domain.Copy !req
936. Certainly one of the great types of villains
is the criminal mastermind...Copy !req
937. the guy who holds an entire city or town
or village or whatever in a grip of fear.Copy !req
938. Penguin has what is informally
known as a Napoleon complex...Copy !req
939. the small man who wants to be big.Copy !req
940. If he could lose that weight, he wouldn't,
because it helps him take up more space.Copy !req
941. His hat makes him taller.Copy !req
942. His umbrella, when extended,
helps him take up more area.Copy !req
943. From the very first story he appears in...Copy !req
944. he wants to rise up in high society
and wants to be a crime boss.Copy !req
945. A number of stories feature him
running for mayor...Copy !req
946. not because he wants to do something great.
He wants that status.Copy !req
947. He wants the power...Copy !req
948. and he wants the status to be the big man
over everybody else in Gotham.Copy !req
949. The criminal mastermind
is sort of an extension of the real...Copy !req
950. Mob crime organizations or crime families
that have been a part of American history...Copy !req
951. almost since the country was founded.
That's a great character for comics...Copy !req
952. because you can take that into the area
of caricature.Copy !req
953. Currently, guys like Black Mask.Copy !req
954. What's more hideous than a guy
in this, you know...Copy !req
955. awful-looking skull mask...Copy !req
956. wearing a business suit,
commanding a legion of street troopers?Copy !req
957. I mean, that's a great foe for Batman.Copy !req
958. To guys like Penguin, Black Mask,
they're out to really dominate the city.Copy !req
959. They wanna be the distorted, hideous,
grotesque face of Gotham City.Copy !req
960. Can we get some girls in here?
Careful what you wish for.Copy !req
961. Unh!Copy !req
962. Cat got your tongue?Copy !req
963. The apple on the tree.Copy !req
964. The seductive siren song of the temptress.Copy !req
965. The femme fatale.Copy !req
966. The femme fatale crystallizes the qualities
of both a villain and a love interest...Copy !req
967. mall at the same time.Copy !req
968. You can find roots in movies.Copy !req
969. You can find the actresses...Copy !req
970. who maybe inspired
some of the villainesses who were created.Copy !req
971. And these were women who used
their beauty to lure the hero in...Copy !req
972. to get the hero to do their bidding.Copy !req
973. And that of course
was reflected in the comics.Copy !req
974. It was part of the inherent popular culture.Copy !req
975. Poison Ivy is a great example
of a female villain...Copy !req
976. who will actually take advantage,
knowing that the male characters...Copy !req
977. the male heroes,
and even the male villains...Copy !req
978. that she's working with,
are the ones susceptible to love...Copy !req
979. to connecting with her.Copy !req
980. And she uses those assumptions
for her own gain.Copy !req
981. She finds that her power is in, essentially...Copy !req
982. taking advantage of other people's
vulnerability to emotions.Copy !req
983. She took everything that could be seen
as objectification towards women...Copy !req
984. and then used it as her own power
and turns it around on the guys.Copy !req
985. She's very interested in controlling people.Copy !req
986. Harley Quinn is a case of love gone bad.Copy !req
987. The individual who's fascinated
with the supervillains...Copy !req
988. "fascinated with their egos and their qualities,
and Joker plays to that.Copy !req
989. So Harleen Quinzel is a woman...Copy !req
990. who is a psychiatry intern, essentially,
at Arkham Asylum.Copy !req
991. When Bruce Timm
and I wrote the origin for her...Copy !req
992. in Mad Love, then we really got
into her personality.Copy !req
993. That she wanted to write a tell-all book
about Gotham's psychotic criminals...Copy !req
994. then wound up falling under the sway of one
and becoming one herself.Copy !req
995. She wants the toughest case possible.Copy !req
996. And who is the toughest case?
It's the Joker.Copy !req
997. There's this connection
that they have together.Copy !req
998. I think there is an element
of manipulation on his end.Copy !req
999. That he, um...Copy !req
1000. I think he fancies her,
but also that he's realizing that...Copy !req
1001. here's an opportunity for him
to get out of Arkham Asylum.Copy !req
1002. Harley's a bit of a social chameleon.Copy !req
1003. She molds herself to the people around her.
When she hangs out with heroes, she's heroic.Copy !req
1004. She hangs out with villains, she's villainous.
When with the Joker, she's more murderous...Copy !req
1005. than she is at other times.Copy !req
1006. Some of the villainesses that we have
in the DC universe...Copy !req
1007. - ... are almost more powerful than the villains.
- The sky is the limit...Copy !req
1008. as far as female villains are concerned.Copy !req
1009. Someone like Cheetah, who is crazy ferocious.Copy !req
1010. With the Cheetah,
I wanted to create somebody...Copy !req
1011. who resonated
with Wonder Woman, with Diana.Copy !req
1012. We added kind of a back-story
that they were friends...Copy !req
1013. and then ultimately
she became the Cheetah.Copy !req
1014. And Wonder Woman later learned
she was never really her friend.Copy !req
1015. It was all just a play, and it was
a bond of trust that was broken.Copy !req
1016. And the Cheetah has turned into this savage
creature that wants to destroy humanity...Copy !req
1017. as much as Wonder Woman wants
to protect it.Copy !req
1018. At this point in time...Copy !req
1019. I think we're lucky enough to be in an era
where there is a lot more equality.Copy !req
1020. And you're getting some great stories.Copy !req
1021. They can be defined by what their plot is...Copy !req
1022. what their motive is, what their goals are,
what their methods are.Copy !req
1023. And that's great that you don't simply
have to define them by gender.Copy !req
1024. The female villain, you know, historically...Copy !req
1025. goes back all the way to Greek mythology.Copy !req
1026. Look at a character like Hera, for instance...Copy !req
1027. who is both a heroine and a villain,
depending on the story.Copy !req
1028. Other female villains throughout time
have a lot of that same complexity to them.Copy !req
1029. You look at a character like Catwoman,
for instance.Copy !req
1030. In her original incarnation,
I believe, she was just an adventurer.Copy !req
1031. She was out there being
a burglar and jewel robber...Copy !req
1032. simply because of the thrill of it.Copy !req
1033. We began learning more about her in the 80s,
what her past might have been...Copy !req
1034. and that certainly made her more of a
complex and more of a sympathetic character.Copy !req
1035. And then to the present day where she is...Copy !req
1036. I believe one of the members
of the Justice League.Copy !req
1037. So she's gone all the way from being
a villain to anti-hero to straight-on heroine.Copy !req
1038. She's very curious to us.
She has that duality of both good and evil.Copy !req
1039. And I think that that allows
her to be relatable.Copy !req
1040. I think that she's the most realistic.Copy !req
1041. It was just interesting to see
this strong, female character.Copy !req
1042. And she was a precursor, I think...Copy !req
1043. to a lot of the sort of heroines
that we now see on screen.Copy !req
1044. Women really started to become more popular
on the big screen and on TV.Copy !req
1045. As a result, I think of characters
like Catwoman being portrayed...Copy !req
1046. in the early days of television and film.Copy !req
1047. Today, happily,
from what I have seen and read...Copy !req
1048. you have superheroes, superheroines,
supervillains, supervillainesses...Copy !req
1049. all on a level playing field.Copy !req
1050. I think any time you can make
the character strong...Copy !req
1051. whether they're male or female,
you'll end up with a good villain.Copy !req
1052. it should come as
no surprise, no coincidence, really...Copy !req
1053. that the more popular heroes are the ones
who typically battle the most sinister...Copy !req
1054. and charismatic rogues' galleries.Copy !req
1055. For it's this dynamic roster of villains...Copy !req
1056. that bolster and buoy
the popularity of our hero.Copy !req
1057. When you look at the very best characters,
the very best heroes...Copy !req
1058. in comic book mythology, they typically
have the strongest rogues' gallery.Copy !req
1059. I think you develop a better rogues' gallery
around the superhero...Copy !req
1060. if the scale of the superhero...Copy !req
1061. is one where it's easy to imagine
the villain coming into being.Copy !req
1062. You look at Batman,
Batman ultimately is a human being.Copy !req
1063. So therefore you can have villains
that face him that are human plus a little.Copy !req
1064. Batman's rogues' gallery, which I think
is the best rogues' gallery...Copy !req
1065. of all the DC heroes,
that resonates the most.Copy !req
1066. Those characters are considered,
you know, sort of the greater villains.Copy !req
1067. There's an interesting thing
about a lot of Batman's rogues...Copy !req
1068. and here I'm specifically thinking
of, like, the Penguin and Two-Face...Copy !req
1069. and Clayface and the Joker.Copy !req
1070. They're all physically deformed
in some way.Copy !req
1071. And that physical deformity
actually drives their evil.Copy !req
1072. Massively more difficult to have
villains of scale for Superman.Copy !req
1073. Character is incredibly powerful.Copy !req
1074. Who's tough enough to fight him?Copy !req
1075. Brainiac felt like a character who could actually
fight Superman and win without superpowers...Copy !req
1076. because he's a computer.
He's a computer character.Copy !req
1077. So you must be Brainiac. Okay.Copy !req
1078. Brainiac was an alien
who was collecting cities...Copy !req
1079. of different world cultures
as he moved throughout the galaxy...Copy !req
1080. throughout the universe.Copy !req
1081. And he comes to Earth to shrink Metropolis,
among other cities...Copy !req
1082. and put it in a glass bottle...Copy !req
1083. and take it in his interplanetary collection
back to wherever he may have come from.Copy !req
1084. We didn't want it to always be Lex Luthor
that was fighting Superman, or Brainiac.Copy !req
1085. But then you start running
out of the famous names.Copy !req
1086. So we kept coming up with new guys,
you know.Copy !req
1087. The Parasite, he becomes
this individual who draws power from others.Copy !req
1088. He draws super power from Superman
or other superheroes he was around.Copy !req
1089. He draws life force from other people.Copy !req
1090. Sometimes even identity from other people.Copy !req
1091. I think Metallo's a really interesting villain.Copy !req
1092. And a large part of why I like him
is because he was human...Copy !req
1093. but now he's got this Kryptonite heart.Copy !req
1094. So he still has a heart,
but it's a deformed heart.Copy !req
1095. It's an obscene heart. It's a heart of evil.Copy !req
1096. And that heart affects what he does,
and it has such a massive effect on Superman.Copy !req
1097. Characters like Superman and Wonder
Woman, the rogues' galleries get a lot smaller.Copy !req
1098. Wonder Woman in particular
has a very small gallery...Copy !req
1099. because of who she is
and what she represents...Copy !req
1100. and how she becomes more iconic
makes it harder to play off of her weaknesses...Copy !req
1101. because a lot of people don't see
weaknesses in the character.Copy !req
1102. There's no major villainy
that could exploit those weaknesses in her.Copy !req
1103. We added another layer to Wonder Woman's
origin by making her the daughter of Zeus.Copy !req
1104. So she has divine blood.Copy !req
1105. And then we wanted to take it even further.Copy !req
1106. It's like, "Well, let's create somebody new,
a new god."Copy !req
1107. And it is— We created this character
called the First Born.Copy !req
1108. He has no name.
He was the first child of Zeus and Hera.Copy !req
1109. And he was cast out of Olympus
because there was a prophecy...Copy !req
1110. that he would take over Olympus.Copy !req
1111. So here is her original brother
who's been cast out of heaven and hated by all.Copy !req
1112. So now he's got a major hate-on
for his family and the world.Copy !req
1113. Just as heroes wit! Bond
together to fight a common enemy...Copy !req
1114. so too will the villains.Copy !req
1115. The fusion of good is matched
only by the unification of evil.Copy !req
1116. The Crime Syndicate, the Secret Society...Copy !req
1117. the Rogues, the Legion of Doom.Copy !req
1118. Though their members differ...Copy !req
1119. all villain team-ups employ
the same battle-tested strategy:Copy !req
1120. There is strength in numbers.Copy !req
1121. My favorite aspect of working
in this business...Copy !req
1122. is when I have created various
incarnations of various teams.Copy !req
1123. We need one character who can fly.
We need one character who's really strong.Copy !req
1124. We need one character
who's maybe got some magical powers.Copy !req
1125. And just putting that together
is half the challenge.Copy !req
1126. The story writes itself more often than
not after that.Copy !req
1127. In The Challenge of the Super Friends...Copy !req
1128. where you've got
the Justice League members marching...Copy !req
1129. towards the screen and then the other side,
the Legion of Doom are marching.Copy !req
1130. They're coming at each other, and there's this
explosion when the two sides hit each other.Copy !req
1131. I mean, you know, as a 6-, 7-year-old kid,
you know, it blew your mind.Copy !req
1132. Normally, villains are seen as individuals
and they have their own personal plot...Copy !req
1133. to take over the world
or something like that.Copy !req
1134. But the idea of them combining together,
you know, makes their threat that much bigger.Copy !req
1135. Superviilain team-ups, ha, ha,
are their own unique animal...Copy !req
1136. because on the one hand...Copy !req
1137. there's a huge potential
and disappointment ratio...Copy !req
1138. when supervillains team up.Copy !req
1139. The potential is, well...Copy !req
1140. it's two great tastes
that taste great together.Copy !req
1141. It's two threats are better than one.Copy !req
1142. You know, when Lex Luthor
and Brainiac team up...Copy !req
1143. you know, when the Joker
and the Riddler team up...Copy !req
1144. that's incredibly, you know,
resonant and powerful.Copy !req
1145. The problem is that
99.9 percent of the time...Copy !req
1146. the ability of the superhero
to overcome their plan...Copy !req
1147. is usually hidden in the conflict
between the supervillains.Copy !req
1148. The supervillains, they can't get
their act together. A comic book is 22 pages.Copy !req
1149. They can get their act together for 19 pages,
but those last three are just, ugh...Copy !req
1150. they're just falling apart.Copy !req
1151. I'd like to complete this transaction
with as little bloodshed as possible, Lex.Copy !req
1152. Now put your hands up
and have Toy Man turn us around.Copy !req
1153. Don't look at him, Big Boy.Copy !req
1154. Grodd is leader.Copy !req
1155. The Rogues are different. The Rogues
can come together for a common goal.Copy !req
1156. They're guys that seem silly at first,
but you look at somebody like Mirror Master.Copy !req
1157. Okay, the guy can teleport through
any reflective surface, not just a mirror.Copy !req
1158. He can bend light, illusions.Copy !req
1159. He can make himself appear
in multiple places at once.Copy !req
1160. I mean, there's so many very interesting things
that he can do on his own...Copy !req
1161. that when you put him into a group
with other villains that are versatile...Copy !req
1162. you have a really cool set
of personalities and powers.Copy !req
1163. Although, they do have,
you know, specific rivalries.Copy !req
1164. Heat Wave and Captain Cold
don't like each other.Copy !req
1165. Yeah, one's hot and one's cold,
but there are reasons.Copy !req
1166. In our "Flash Run,"
all the Rogues...Copy !req
1167. they used to have guns and wands
and mechanical devices dating back...Copy !req
1168. to when they were originally created.
But we made them have superpowers...Copy !req
1169. and it's because of Captain Cold.Copy !req
1170. He made them undergo this transformation
that gave them superpowers.Copy !req
1171. Well, it had negative side effects.Copy !req
1172. For poor Heat Wave, it burnt off
basically all the top layer of his skin...Copy !req
1173. so he looks really gross and messed up, so
he hates Captain Cold for making him that way.Copy !req
1174. Why do they hang out together?Copy !req
1175. There's strength
in numbers, and Flash is fast enough...Copy !req
1176. he can fight more than one person
at a time.Copy !req
1177. There's something about the Rogues.Copy !req
1178. They wanna pull their jobs,
live their lives and be alone.Copy !req
1179. Like, it's their job to pull off heists
and steal stuff.Copy !req
1180. That's how they make their living.
They consider themselves blue-collar guys.Copy !req
1181. "Gonna pop a beer and we're gonna spend
the money we made by robbing the bank."Copy !req
1182. What other villains can you think about?
They pull a heist, they escape the Flash...Copy !req
1183. - ... and then they go to a bar to have a beer?
- The Suicide Squad is the exception to the rule.Copy !req
1184. And what makes it interesting is
it's a bunch of villains...Copy !req
1185. who are forced by the government to go on
missions that are for the good of the people.Copy !req
1186. And if they fail, if they decide to try and escape,
they have devices that will kill them.Copy !req
1187. So they are forced to do it.Copy !req
1188. I think the fact that they are forced
to be heroes despite their own instincts...Copy !req
1189. and that they're constantly trying to
work out ways to undermine missions...Copy !req
1190. and to sometimes betray their teammates
and be villains even while they're—Copy !req
1191. When they're forced to do the right thing
is the reason why that team, that book...Copy !req
1192. - ... is always around and is always popular.
- None of their motivation is theirs.Copy !req
1193. They're doing the bidding
of Amanda Waller and the government.Copy !req
1194. Are the people
that are planting these bombs...Copy !req
1195. on the backs of
the Suicide Squad members...Copy !req
1196. are they the heroes?Copy !req
1197. You know, purportedly they are.Copy !req
1198. But the way they're doing it,
it really, you know comes down to...Copy !req
1199. it's an extreme form of water boarding,
I think.Copy !req
1200. They have reason to hate their handlers,
who are supposed to be the good guys...Copy !req
1201. but they're not seen that way in the books.Copy !req
1202. So it's an interesting study
in what makes a villain and what makes a hero...Copy !req
1203. because it's kind of flip-flopped
in that book.Copy !req
1204. They're not there to personally screw
the other guy standing next to them.Copy !req
1205. They are there to just survive.Copy !req
1206. And they are— They don't want it
to be their suicide mission.Copy !req
1207. And I do think that that's of a different
and new angle.Copy !req
1208. Suicide Squad is successful,
because it has a rotating cast.Copy !req
1209. You could kill some members off.
There's always that question...Copy !req
1210. of something happening to the cast
that could change the status quo.Copy !req
1211. There's always that anticipation
that if a mission goes wrong...Copy !req
1212. somebody could actually die.Copy !req
1213. It's a gut-level survival instinct.Copy !req
1214. For the reader, you're just like:Copy !req
1215. "Who's gonna make it
through this mission and how?"Copy !req
1216. You know, and then, you know,
“Are they gonna manage to actually get free...Copy !req
1217. so they can take care of Amanda Waller?"
Heh, heh, heh.Copy !req
1218. Sometimes it's more exciting
to find a villain that's so powerful...Copy !req
1219. the combined might of an entire team
can't defeat them.Copy !req
1220. So the superheroes and the supervillains
have to band together...Copy !req
1221. put aside their differences.Copy !req
1222. You always have that classic shot
where they reach out and shake hands...Copy !req
1223. and, like, "Let's team up."Copy !req
1224. And, to me,
that's like the ultimate odd couple.Copy !req
1225. The problem is though that there aren't
that many of those kinds of villains.Copy !req
1226. So it's always a challenge to find one villain
powerful enough to take out all of them.Copy !req
1227. It's interesting that someone
like Lex Luthor could do it...Copy !req
1228. just because he has the skill
to out-think them.Copy !req
1229. So it isn't always power.
Sometimes it's that X-factor.Copy !req
1230. But if you can manage
to do the right storyline...Copy !req
1231. again, it can be a lot of fun
and a really great challenge.Copy !req
1232. I'm not here to challenge you, Darkseid.
Quite the contrary.Copy !req
1233. I've got something you want.
The only thing you want.Copy !req
1234. People can identify with that...Copy !req
1235. because when we're faced
with something that endangers...Copy !req
1236. our way of life...Copy !req
1237. we can set aside our differences
and work together.Copy !req
1238. A fine line exists between a hero and villain.Copy !req
1239. And sometimes the line is crossed.Copy !req
1240. In essence, the hero becomes the villain.Copy !req
1241. But when a hero loses their way,
is salvation possible?Copy !req
1242. One of the great classic stories of literature...Copy !req
1243. is the drama of the good man goes bad.Copy !req
1244. What is it that can happen to us
that puts us through...Copy !req
1245. a set of circumstances that drives us
to do something we don't morally believe in?Copy !req
1246. That's a powerful tale.Copy !req
1247. Trying to turn a hero, you have to actually
figure out how to affect their moral center.Copy !req
1248. It's in the face of a planet being blown up,
a city being blown up...Copy !req
1249. or a wife or a lover dying.Copy !req
1250. And the idea that "I wasn't strong enough,
I wasn't powerful enough and perhaps...Copy !req
1251. me doing the right thing or being a hero
was the problem.Copy !req
1252. If I'd been more vicious, if I'd been more brutal,
I could have changed things."Copy !req
1253. I think every great turn of a hero
to a villain, it comes from that.Copy !req
1254. In Injustice, the storyline
is that the Joker has killed Lois...Copy !req
1255. and it's not just Lois' death that drives
Superman to almost a level of insanity...Copy !req
1256. but the fact that Lois
was carrying his child...Copy !req
1257. and so it has double significance
and impact on him.Copy !req
1258. That's enough.Copy !req
1259. At that point,
he kind of loses his frame of reference...Copy !req
1260. and decides to create
almost a totalitarian state...Copy !req
1261. where he's the ultimate authority.
So again in his mind...Copy !req
1262. he is trying to prevent what happened
to Lois and his unborn child...Copy !req
1263. from happening in the world
by becoming...Copy !req
1264. you know, the enlightened dictator.Copy !req
1265. But, you know,
you see sort of the holes in logic of that.Copy !req
1266. You know, ultimately,
you are creating a greater evil...Copy !req
1267. by trying to do
some small sense of good.Copy !req
1268. There have been a few stories where
heroes go villainous for some time...Copy !req
1269. and I think probably the most famous one
is Hal Jordan when Coast City...Copy !req
1270. the city he called home, was attacked.Copy !req
1271. And many people were killed and destroyed
and he wanted to bring them back.Copy !req
1272. And he went to the Guardians
and said, "Give me this power so I can do it."Copy !req
1273. And they said no,
and he ultimately killed them...Copy !req
1274. and became—Copy !req
1275. Went crazy, became this big villain
in the DC universe.Copy !req
1276. You know, they say that power corrupts
and absolute power corrupts absolutely.Copy !req
1277. Usually when a hero falls from grace
it's because they've succumbed...Copy !req
1278. to their own power,
like when Hal Jordan became Parallax.Copy !req
1279. It was Hal Jordan overreaching...Copy !req
1280. and trying to use his power as
the Green Lantern to recreate an entire city...Copy !req
1281. and he kept wanting
more and more power.Copy !req
1282. And he basically got corrupted
by his own...Copy !req
1283. You know, by his own super power.Copy !req
1284. And I think that is usually the path down—
You know, down darkness.Copy !req
1285. Through becoming the Spectre...Copy !req
1286. and ultimately becoming Green Lantern again
he found redemption.Copy !req
1287. But it took years and it was a great
hero's journey that we got to witness.Copy !req
1288. Hal Jordan was always about
overcoming fear and I thought, "Well...Copy !req
1289. if he's all about overcoming fear,
there's gotta be a moment that he gave in to fear.Copy !req
1290. When was that weakness?"
That weak point was when he was worried...Copy !req
1291. something else was gonna happen
once Coast City was destroyed.Copy !req
1292. And in that moment,
he let fear kind of take hold of his heart.Copy !req
1293. That's when Sinestro unleashed Parallax,
who was this—Copy !req
1294. We created this entity of terror that could
possess his soul and corrupt his body.Copy !req
1295. And essentially turn him into Parallax.Copy !req
1296. And by having Hal still make a mistake
and give in to fear...Copy !req
1297. it was still on point
and gave him a point of failure.Copy !req
1298. But at the same time...Copy !req
1299. adding Parallax allowed
for an easier redemption.Copy !req
1300. And so if a hero does cross the line...Copy !req
1301. does he just go back to work the next day?
The idea was no.Copy !req
1302. It was a 10-year problem for him.Copy !req
1303. Comic books, by, I think, their basic nature
is about wish fulfillment.Copy !req
1304. Therefore, the concept of second chances...Copy !req
1305. is actually built into the very concept
of the type of material we do.Copy !req
1306. So the idea that a hero
or a villain could be redeemed...Copy !req
1307. is exactly what comics have to be about.Copy !req
1308. We can take bad and turn it good.Copy !req
1309. And we can make good even better.Copy !req
1310. And that's what comics
and fantasy storytelling is all about.Copy !req
1311. Cry for Justice began with a bunch
of heroes trying to track down Prometheus.Copy !req
1312. Prometheus has actually taken
the identity of one of the heroes.Copy !req
1313. So he actually is amongst them
the entire time.Copy !req
1314. At the end of it...Copy !req
1315. Prometheus has worked out a way
to destroy most of Star City...Copy !req
1316. which is Green Arrow's home.Copy !req
1317. He also maims Arsenal...Copy !req
1318. and then ultimately Arsenal's
daughter is killed.Copy !req
1319. What happens at the very end
is the one moderate person...Copy !req
1320. Green Arrow, then tracks down Prometheus
on his own and executes him.Copy !req
1321. And that then led to a long arc for Green Arrow
where he had to redeem himself.Copy !req
1322. Green Arrow crossed the line
and took the life of a villain.Copy !req
1323. He did not just come back
from that adventure...Copy !req
1324. and say, "Oh, well,
I'm never gonna kill people again."Copy !req
1325. He had a mental breakdown,
and we did a year...Copy !req
1326. a year and a half long story
where he lost it.Copy !req
1327. And it was to show that there's
consequences for this kind of stuff.Copy !req
1328. I do think that in modern comics,
it's okay for the heroes to fail.Copy !req
1329. You just got to have it mean something.Copy !req
1330. And not just teach them something...Copy !req
1331. but have them suffer
because they did something wrong.Copy !req
1332. Taking someone's life, you take away
all they're gonna have and ever will be.Copy !req
1333. And it stays with you even if you
do it for the right and proper thing.Copy !req
1334. So, you know, killing in comics is—
When the hero pulls the trigger...Copy !req
1335. I think it's not done a lot,
but I think when it's done...Copy !req
1336. it has to be done in a real big way...Copy !req
1337. that has an emotional punch
to the hero's psyche and soul.Copy !req
1338. After we've witnessed such heinous crimes...Copy !req
1339. after we've experienced firsthand...Copy !req
1340. pure evil in the face of villainy,
can the evildoer be redeemed?Copy !req
1341. In this comic book world
where heroes often get second chances...Copy !req
1342. can the villain ever be forgiven?Copy !req
1343. It's a lot harder to figure out
how somebody who spent years...Copy !req
1344. taking what they wanted, killing people...Copy !req
1345. whatever set of misdeeds
will suddenly turn around...Copy !req
1346. and find God and become moral
the rest of their lives.Copy !req
1347. Does it happen?Copy !req
1348. Probably does in reality,
but it's a real tough story to tell.Copy !req
1349. Black Adam is an interesting character.
He was chosen by the wizard Shazam...Copy !req
1350. given powers back in
the ancient Egyptian days.Copy !req
1351. He was a slave in Kahndaq.Copy !req
1352. He took these powers, became Black Adam,
the champion, and he was a hero.Copy !req
1353. And over time,
he was corrupted by that power.Copy !req
1354. He went back to Kahndaq and he said,
“I'm leading Kahndaq now, you are free.Copy !req
1355. I'm here." And then he found someone
he fell in love with. Isis was born...Copy !req
1356. and then Isis' brother Osiris. Like,
we kind of created a Black Adam family.Copy !req
1357. And then that family was torn apart
and they were killed.Copy !req
1358. And Isis, who had been such a great presence
for Adam, who had preached peace.Copy !req
1359. As she's dying in his arms,
the last words she says is, "Avenge us."Copy !req
1360. And that sends Black Adam off.Copy !req
1361. And he kills an entire country out of rage.Copy !req
1362. And, obviously,
hard to redeem somebody after that.Copy !req
1363. He believes in doing the right thing.Copy !req
1364. He just goes about it in such a barbaric
and awful way.Copy !req
1365. Pete Tomasi wrote a fantastic story wrapped
around a character everybody should hate.Copy !req
1366. And made him—
You know, made him a hero...Copy !req
1367. in a very—
You know, from a very villainous past.Copy !req
1368. It's a weird spot to be in when
you're a writer, when you have to say:Copy !req
1369. "I committed genocide,
but I have to make this character relatable...Copy !req
1370. and in a weird way have people understand
where he was coming from at that point."Copy !req
1371. So it's a tough line to walk
when you're a writer writing a character...Copy !req
1372. who's as three-dimensional
as Black Adam...Copy !req
1373. because he really is one of those
great three-dimensional characters...Copy !req
1374. that you could horribly understand
why he does something.Copy !req
1375. With villains, though,
when you try and turn them into heroes...Copy !req
1376. they can lose their...
What makes them special.Copy !req
1377. So it's a very rare case
where a villain is better as a hero.Copy !req
1378. Most of the time most readers just can't wait
for them to be villainous again.Copy !req
1379. When we worked on Dark Knight Returns...Copy !req
1380. where we have Doctor Wolper...Copy !req
1381. trying to bring the Joker back
and trying to work with him...Copy !req
1382. and now Doctor Wolper also
has an enormous ego.Copy !req
1383. And so you've got Joker's ego,
Wolper's ego.Copy !req
1384. It doesn't work out well.
It doesn't work out well for Wolper.Copy !req
1385. But the Joker absolutely
was all about:Copy !req
1386. "I am rehabilitated. I'm here.
I've seen the error of my ways."Copy !req
1387. And he really just used that as a matter
to get himself out of Arkham...Copy !req
1388. so he could commit tremendous crimes.Copy !req
1389. I think some of them can be redeemed,
but I think what you gotta do...Copy !req
1390. is you gotta dangle the sense of redemption
in front of them then rip it away.Copy !req
1391. Ultimately, you show
why they were a villain in the first place.Copy !req
1392. As society continues
to evolve, so too do our villains.Copy !req
1393. In September of 2011...Copy !req
1394. DC relaunched its entire line of comics...Copy !req
1395. dubbed The New 52.Copy !req
1396. Two years ago,
relaunched the DC universe.Copy !req
1397. We called that The New 52 and it was
basically a soft reset of the universe...Copy !req
1398. where we basically fixed the things
that we felt weren't working...Copy !req
1399. and kept going with the things
that were.Copy !req
1400. We sat down and thought about: "What do we
need more of in the DC universe?"Copy !req
1401. And one of the things that we wanted
to address was the villains.Copy !req
1402. What is villainy to us in 2013?
What is real evil in 2013?Copy !req
1403. It's horrendous, right? And sometimes
if you get too close to the reality of it...Copy !req
1404. it takes you out of the comic book.Copy !req
1405. So using super villains as metaphors
for whatever that is...Copy !req
1406. and for the brutal attacks that they do,
it's gotten darker. It's darker. And it's scarier.Copy !req
1407. And the attacks come without notice
sometimes and they're personal.Copy !req
1408. I think that's because
we live in a very, sort of, fearful time.Copy !req
1409. Ever since 9/11, the world's been on edge...Copy !req
1410. and no one knows
when the next shoe is gonna drop.Copy !req
1411. Is it gonna be a tsunami?
Is it gonna be economic collapse?Copy !req
1412. Villains that sort of embody
that sense of unpredictability...Copy !req
1413. that sense of, you know, doom can come
in any form and at any time.Copy !req
1414. I think that speaks
to everyone's sort of hidden fears.Copy !req
1415. Instead of characters of good and evil,
it became about characters of order and chaos.Copy !req
1416. It became about anarchy.Copy !req
1417. We are artists and we're trying to reflect
what's going on in the world.Copy !req
1418. That's what all art does. It's a mirror.Copy !req
1419. While DC's rogues' gallery
of villains is already enormous...Copy !req
1420. there's always room for a little more evil.Copy !req
1421. With the advent of The New 52,
the heroes of the DC universe...Copy !req
1422. must face new threats and adversaries.Copy !req
1423. I have a strange belief
about the way one proceeds with comics...Copy !req
1424. is to using old characters
and introducing new characters.Copy !req
1425. My belief is if you're gonna use
one or two old characters...Copy !req
1426. you have to introduce a new one.Copy !req
1427. I don't think we should ever be so content
to keep riding on the same horse.Copy !req
1428. If the hero has to survive
for 16, 20, 30 years...Copy !req
1429. you wanna know all
the different aspects of that character...Copy !req
1430. and the villain will make them face
certain parts about themselves...Copy !req
1431. that on their own...Copy !req
1432. they may not even think about
or can come up in a storyline.Copy !req
1433. A villain will find that, because they're
always trying to find something new...Copy !req
1434. to use against the hero...Copy !req
1435. which makes you explore
your hero even more.Copy !req
1436. The goal of any villain
is to challenge our hero, right?Copy !req
1437. Not to challenge them
but to take them to the ragged edge...Copy !req
1438. of his existence in every way.Copy !req
1439. The idea is to try and think about
what the character is most afraid of...Copy !req
1440. at that particular moment
in his or her life, the hero...Copy !req
1441. then create a villain
that comes right at that thing.Copy !req
1442. So for "Court of Owls,"
that story was really about...Copy !req
1443. you know, a moment when Batman
was on top of the world.Copy !req
1444. He felt very confident in Gotham
and it made me realize...Copy !req
1445. Batman might think he knows the city
but he can't know the history of the city.Copy !req
1446. He can't know everything about it. So what
if the city itself begins to come at him saying:Copy !req
1447. "You don't know me that well."
With the Court of Owls...Copy !req
1448. they're this group buried and layered into
the past of the city in ways that are scary to him.Copy !req
1449. He doesn't believe they exist at all.Copy !req
1450. Then he sees that they actually
have nests for their Talons...Copy !req
1451. inside Wayne buildings
and then in the penultimate scene...Copy !req
1452. he realizes that
the person behind the story...Copy !req
1453. is actually someone who claims to be
a Wayne himself.Copy !req
1454. The Guardians of the Universe
were characters that they're ancient beings...Copy !req
1455. that divorced themselves
from emotion a long time ago.Copy !req
1456. They thought emotion was dangerous.Copy !req
1457. They say the law is supposed
to be devoid of emotion.Copy !req
1458. The First Lantern is the being
who got the first ring...Copy !req
1459. who was there to witness the divorcing
of the Guardians and their emotional hearts.Copy !req
1460. And he took that emotional power
for himself.Copy !req
1461. And he had changed who he was...Copy !req
1462. and the Guardians locked him away
like they did their emotions.Copy !req
1463. The First Lantern is a metaphor for all the
pent up emotion the Guardians have buried.Copy !req
1464. And that First Lantern is now free.Copy !req
1465. At one point, the First Lantern says—
As he's got them captured...Copy !req
1466. he's turned the tables and he says,
“I'm gonna change this universe now.Copy !req
1467. But before I do,
I want you to have your emotions back.Copy !req
1468. I want you to feel this."Copy !req
1469. The Guardians,
for the first time in billions of years...Copy !req
1470. have their emotions back
and they feel shame and fear...Copy !req
1471. and horror about what they've done
and what they've become...Copy !req
1472. which I really enjoyed.Copy !req
1473. And then that's right before
Sinestro wipes them out.Copy !req
1474. When I got into Aquaman and I was
launching Aquaman for The New 52...Copy !req
1475. my attitude was he wants to be on land.Copy !req
1476. So he made a conscious decision in issue one,
"My life is on land here."Copy !req
1477. And I wanted to have something that
was gonna drag him back into the ocean.Copy !req
1478. So we created— Ivan Reis and I created
this race of sea creatures...Copy !req
1479. humanoid sea creatures,
man-eating creatures...Copy !req
1480. that were starving and from the trench
and they had eaten all their food...Copy !req
1481. and they were coming up.Copy !req
1482. They come up out of the ocean
and attack a town...Copy !req
1483. and Aquaman gets involved
with that attack...Copy !req
1484. and has to go back into the water.Copy !req
1485. What Aquaman doesn't know
is they're actually another kingdom.Copy !req
1486. They're actually another underwater
kingdom that is one of many, with Atlantis.Copy !req
1487. Although it was spawned from comics...Copy !req
1488. the DC universe isn't limited
to panels and pages.Copy !req
1489. It has expanded to include all forms of media
and given its villains new worlds to explore.Copy !req
1490. DC Comics isn't just comics, you know?Copy !req
1491. It starts in the comics,
all the characters come from the comics.Copy !req
1492. But then they explode into everything else.Copy !req
1493. If it wasn't for these amazingly rich
and complex and multilayered villains...Copy !req
1494. that we had to craft our stories around
and what is driving you through the story...Copy !req
1495. what is pushing Batman,
you know, to push his limits...Copy !req
1496. to get to the end of the game
is ultimately the plan...Copy !req
1497. and the storytelling
around the villain...Copy !req
1498. and the villains' interactions with each other
as they all try to take down Batman.Copy !req
1499. You had your shot, Deathstroke,
but you're not the only assassin in town.Copy !req
1500. There is such rich material here
and such deep, amazing characters...Copy !req
1501. that have such long history
and love from the fans...Copy !req
1502. for 50, 60, 70 years that we wanna
tell great stories in our games.Copy !req
1503. We don't want it to just be about
the gameplay and cool visuals.Copy !req
1504. There's gotta be the meat there
of a great story.Copy !req
1505. To me, it was a lot of fun to see that because
it explores the world of these characters...Copy !req
1506. and it doesn't just give you
one flavor month in, month out.Copy !req
1507. The future, including
the upcoming Forever Evil comic event...Copy !req
1508. will continue to emphasize the villains
and their many diabolical deeds.Copy !req
1509. As DC celebrates its villainy,
we're doing the first New 52 event series.Copy !req
1510. I'm writing it. David Finch is drawing it.
It's called Forever Evil.Copy !req
1511. And the context of this
is the Justice League is dead.Copy !req
1512. The villains have inherited the earth.
They've been killed by the Crime Syndicate.Copy !req
1513. So we create an event that now carries on
throughout the rest of 2013 and 2014...Copy !req
1514. that's all about the villains.Copy !req
1515. And when we looked at the whole lineup
of characters, it really came down to:Copy !req
1516. Why does this character exist
in the DC universe?Copy !req
1517. What role does this character fill?Copy !req
1518. How do we show that function through
story, through character development?Copy !req
1519. Seeing all the villains
manifest themselves in animation...Copy !req
1520. and television and film and videogames
from the comic books, that's...Copy !req
1521. I mean, that's the true power
and testament to the characters themselves.Copy !req
1522. The supervillains of DC Comics...Copy !req
1523. come in all manners
of shapes, sizes, personalities...Copy !req
1524. dark recesses and eccentricities.Copy !req
1525. They conquer worlds, eradicate cities
and terrorize the innocent...Copy !req
1526. all while fighting the hero.Copy !req
1527. And it's this bond between villain
and hero that is inseverabie...Copy !req
1528. "unbreakable, a fusion of soul,
a sense of feeling...Copy !req
1529. a deeply rooted connection
that cannot be extricated.Copy !req
1530. Theirs is a war of intellect, of strength...Copy !req
1531. of darkness and intertwined fate
and destiny to keep doing battle.Copy !req
1532. They can't give up on each other.Copy !req
1533. Without the hero, there is no villain.Copy !req
1534. Without a villain, there can be no hero.Copy !req