Meeting the Man: James Baldwin in Paris (1971)

Directed by Terence Dixon

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James Baldwin as Self • Terence Dixon as Self

In 1970, a British film crew set out to make a straightforward literary portrait of James Baldwin set in Paris, insisting on setting aside his political activism. Baldwin bristled at their questions, and the result is a fascinating, confrontational, ...

France • United Kingdom • Documentary

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1. [Film-maker] James Baldwin agreed to make a film about his life as a writer,

2. rather than as a political figure.

3. Paris seemed an obvious location,

4. as it was here that his career as a successful writer began.

5. Several of his books are set in Paris,

6. and he still spends a lot of his time here.

7. Filming began normally enough.

8. Baldwin reminisced about his original decision to leave New York.

9. When and why I was going to Paris.

10. When was November 11th, 1948.

11. It was a matter of life or death.

12. You can't turn your back in America long enough to write a book...

13. or to find out who you are.

14. I had to be in a desperate situation to come so far, with $40.

15. I don't know how I lived.

16. I sold my clothes, I remember that.

17. I sold my typewriter, I remember that.

18. And some people got very nasty with me because I didn't have any money.

19. I hit the streets, of course.

20. I can't describe... Anyone who's been there knows what I did.

21. And anyone who hasn't been, I cannot tell, you know.

22. I don't know what I did.

23. I got through one day to the next, for four years.

24. How I did it, I don't know.

25. No-one I knew had any money.

26. The great trial was not to let my family know.

27. Because what could they do?

28. Except, you know, just be scared shitless that Jimmy was in trouble,

29. miles and miles away. They couldn't do anything about it.

30. [Film-maker] After shooting began, Baldwin's attitude started to change,

31. and he became less cooperative.

32. He did, however, agree to be filmed in the Algerian quarter,

33. the Harlem of Paris.

34. I must say, the Algerians were very nice to me

35. because they understood the city and I did not.

36. I didn't know these streets. And they protected me in the streets.

37. And no-one else could.

38. The Algerian in France is the nigger in America.

39. [Film-maker] By now, Baldwin was saying

40. that he was no longer interested in his work as a writer,

41. or his time in Paris.

42. He suddenly refused to film sequences depicting his present life here.

43. I'm not really back in Paris.

44. I'm not gonna stay here, that I know.

45. Where do you think we're sitting, in Paris,

46. next door to Washington?

47. My country runs the world, owns the world.

48. As Mr Heath probably will be glad to tell you.

49. I'm in a position in which everyone in the world...

50. .. can claim me and has the right to claim me.

51. I'm one of the very few dark people in the world... who have a voice.

52. That means something which no white writer can mean

53. at this point in the world's history,

54. and I can't really escape that. I don't think I should even try.

55. [Film-maker] By this time, Baldwin was quite hostile to us

56. and had attracted a group of Black American students

57. whom he wanted to accompany him whenever he was filming.

58. One of them was particularly dominant, and insisted, with Baldwin's agreement,

59. that we filmed at the Place de la Bastille,

60. symbol of the French Revolution.

61. [Film-maker] Can you tell us why we're here in this place?

62. Yes. People came out of those streets, not very long ago,

63. to tear down this prison.

64. And my point is the prison is still really here.

65. We build it all the time.

66. I'm speaking more about my own country than I'm speaking about France.

67. I represent, at this moment, many political prisoners in America.

68. That's why I wanted to come here today.

69. [Film-maker] Is that also why you...

70. I mean, you veered this film off your literary work...

71. - What? - You veered the film

72. off your literary work and on to...

73. .. what you feel, rather than what you write.

74. It isn't so much what I feel, Terry,

75. it's what I know.

76. If my work is any good, it will last.

77. I haven't got to talk about that.

78. There's nothing to be said about it.

79. But I do know what is happening... now.

80. You know. I'm not so much a writer as I'm a citizen.

81. And I've got to bear witness to something which I know.

82. [Film-maker] So, why won't you allow us

83. to project you through your work instead of you as you... are?

84. I'm perfectly willing to, but I don't see how you can do it.

85. You know?

86. [Film-maker] Well, we had a system, we had a scheme.

87. Yes.

88. [Film-maker] And you obviously weren't sympathetic to it.

89. That has nothing whatever to do with something else,

90. which I represent whether or not I like it.

91. I could be Bobby Seale.

92. I could be Angela Davis.

93. - [Film-maker] But you couldn't. - I could be Medgar Evers.

94. [Film-maker] You couldn't, because you... are a writer.

95. And that... What's the problem. What are we doing wrong?

96. - Don't put any camera on me. - [Film-maker] What are we doing wrong?

97. You're telling me I'm doing... Tell me.

98. - In the first place, you're not honest. - [Film-maker] In what way?

99. All right.

100. I explained to you that we wanted to do certain things a certain way. Right?

101. - [Film-maker] No, you didn't. - Right.

102. We just talked about that a few minutes ago...

103. - [Film-maker] Explain it to me again. - Right?

104. I told you that we were gonna ask the brother a question, right?

105. - [Film-maker] Yeah. Which we are. - All right.

106. - And you agreed. You didn't ask him. - [Film-maker] Yes, I did.

107. - Don't tell me your memory is that short. - [Film-maker] I asked him.

108. Well, what was the first question you asked him?

109. [Film-maker] You know perfectly well, I'm not getting into this.

110. - What was the first question you asked? - I asked him why he was here,

111. which is the question we agreed to ask, what the Bastille meant to him.

112. That wasn't the question we agreed to ask him.

113. Yes, it was. All right, tell me what it was and I'll put it to him right now.

114. So, I told you to ask him, how would he account for the fact

115. that the Bastille today is still the most popular monument in France?

116. - [Film-maker] Right. - Period.

117. That's not the same thing.

118. The question we've been told to ask is why do you think

119. the Bastille is the most popular monument in France today?

120. Well, it's not the most popular.

121. [Film-maker] Then why I was told to ask that question?

122. I mean, there is a significance to this monument,

123. which I've asked you about.

124. Now, I've been challenged, I've been criticised

125. and I've been told that I didn't ask the question the right way.

126. So, how should I have asked it?

127. It's an honest question.

128. Terry, I know what is happening here.

129. [Film-maker] Well, what? Tell us what's happening.

130. What is happening is that he has something in his mind

131. and I have something in my mind too...

132. .. which you don't quite see.

133. And now you're doing something, you know, rather against your will,

134. without quite knowing what it is.

135. Look, I am not interested in Jimmy Baldwin's Paris, right?

136. I'm not the least interested in my 22 years in this city.

137. It's of no importance at all, right?

138. What is important is I'm a survivor of something and a witness to something.

139. - That is what matters. - [Film-maker] Right.

140. And that is all that matters.

141. I'm not speaking for me.

142. I'm much too... I'm much too proud, for one thing, to speak for my own work.

143. My work will speak for itself, or it won't.

144. But I am a Black man in the middle of this century.

145. And I speak for that.

146. To all of you. The English, the French, the Irish, all of you.

147. Because none of you know yet who this dark stranger is.

148. None of you know it.

149. And that is what this quarrel is really about.

150. I'm not at all what you think I am.

151. I'm very different than that.

152. I have something else to do?

153. [Film-maker] What exactly do you think we think you are?

154. I think you think that I'm an exotic survivor.

155. I don't know what Carl was trying to say, but I'm telling you this,

156. because he looks the way he looks and for no other reason,

157. for no other reason, he could be dead in the morning.

158. That isn't true of you, any of you. It's true of him.

159. That is what your civilization means

160. and that's what you don't want to find out.

161. I've known boys like that all my life. Half of them are dead.

162. Because they're Black.

163. [Film-maker] So, now, you say that... You say that and we could argue

164. that we do know that, that we do know that

165. - and that's why we're here. - Do you? Do you?

166. So, now how do you know we don't know that?

167. Because of the way... I know you don't know

168. because of the way you talk to him.

169. [Film-maker] I'm trying to solicit something from him.

170. I'm trying to get him to communicate with me in a genuine way, which he isn't.

171. He's communicating with me behind a barrier,

172. - which I don't... - He has a life to lose, you don't.

173. [Film-maker] Yeah! And your books have awakened us to that fact,

174. to the extent that we wanted to come here and make a film about it,

175. because that's our means of communication.

176. All right, now we...

177. Okay. All right. Now, we can start.

178. We had to get to this point, before we get any further.

179. [Film-maker] Well, where do we go from here, then?

180. I would tell you, if I could, I really would.

181. [Film-maker] I know you would. We would tell you if we could.

182. And you keep saying to me, "You are making the movie,"

183. and I keep saying to you, "No, we need you to make the movie."

184. That's what I'm trying to tell you, is...

185. When they tore this prison down,

186. that was a great event in European history.

187. And Europe understands that.

188. I am trying to tear a prison down too.

189. That event doesn't yet occur, in European imagination.

190. I am still, for Europe, a savage.

191. When a white man tears down a prison,

192. he is trying to liberate himself.

193. When I tear down a prison, I'm assumed to be turning into another savage.

194. Because you don't understand...

195. that you, for me, my prison.

196. You are my warden.

197. I am battling you.

198. Not you, Terry.

199. But you, the English, you, the French.

200. A whole way of life, a whole system of thought...

201. .. which has kept me in prison until this hour.

202. [Film-maker] But why are we here?

203. You are trying to find out

204. and I'm telling you what you don't know.

205. Do you want us to find out?

206. Yes! You'd better.

207. - You'd better. - We have, as you say,

208. this complete lack of communication

209. because we're, I'm attempting to do something which you...

210. You seem like you already know the answer.

211. And I'm trying to find the answer and I'm trying to show the answer.

212. I know. But I got to be able to talk to somebody.

213. If you're gonna get this movie done...

214. [Film-maker] You've got to talk to people, all right?

215. Is the mic on?

216. [Film-maker] The talking, with the students and others,

217. took place in the studio of Beauford Delaney,

218. an old painter friend of Baldwin's.

219. As the conversation progressed,

220. Baldwin's background as a young Baptist preacher in Harlem

221. became very apparent.

222. All right, now, Fay here's already told me

223. she hasn't read any of James' books, right,

224. and I know that she's only met him the other day.

225. So, I'm gonna ask her,

226. what does she think of him?

227. Being Black, I respected him as a Black man, especially as a Black writer,

228. and you're older than I am,

229. so I respected you, sort of like I respect my parents.

230. And you've achieved in the world.

231. Um...

232. You've gotten up... You've made your name made to the...

233. You've made your name known to the world.

234. Because I'm young. I'm only 20 years old.

235. And you're so, like, inspiration to young Black people in America.

236. The first time I had the opportunity of reading your book,

237. Another Country, I believe, this was quite some time ago,

238. but that was the first book I ever read from cover to cover

239. and I haven't read another since

240. - and, uh...

241. Really, and I still remember the characters and everything.

242. And this is really did a lot for me.

243. I know that, from my own point of view, you know, it was...

244. ..it was, in a sense, all for you. You know?

245. I mean, I know that I love you.

246. But...

247. ..you haven't necessarily got to know that.

248. You know?

249. I suppose I never thought that I would, um...

250. live...

251. to hear you say that you love me.

252. - That sounds very corny, but...

253. But you know what I mean.

254. [Film-maker] In his essays, if you've read them,

255. Jimmy does talk about coming to Paris.

256. Is it possible for you to talk to him about why you individually left the States

257. and compare it with why he left the States?

258. It ain't nobody else's business.

259. - Well, I'll tell you why. - [Film-maker] All right.

260. Because it's not relevant to anyone but us.

261. It doesn't help anyone or it doesn't hurt anyone.

262. We can talk about it, but, like, we don't want to talk to you about it.

263. I can tell you something about it.

264. - [Film-maker] Yes? - Right.

265. The 20 years, 22 years from 1948 and 1971.

266. And speaking, you know, speaking now as Jimmy, you know,

267. and speaking as a Black American who was, you know,

268. who was once as young as these children are now,

269. and why I left my country,

270. I left it because I knew I was gonna be murdered there.

271. And I when I say that, I'm not, you know, exaggerating,

272. that's not a melodramatic statement.

273. - I mean, that means that...

274. I mean that I could not have hoped to live if I had stayed there.

275. I come from a country which is very proud of calling itself a democracy

276. and is very proud of what it calls progress.

277. And I'm pointing out to you...

278. that, 22 years later...

279. boys and girls just like I was then...

280. ..in spite of all that democracy and all that progress,

281. had to leave the country, our country, for the same reason that I left it.

282. 1948, it was Truman in the White House, right?

283. He'd just dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.

284. And, in 1971, there's who in the White House?

285. Dick Nixon.

286. Richard Milhous.

287. What do they expect from us?

288. - The darker brother? - Right on, right on, right on.

289. I've had a hard life. You know?

290. - Right on.

291. But, my dear...

292. No, really, I know it sounds a terrible thing to say...

293. ..I would not be a white American...

294. .. for all the tea in China.

295. All the oil in Texas.

296. I really wouldn't like to have to live...

297. .. with all those lies.

298. Yeah.

299. This is what is irreducible and awful.

300. You, the English, you, the French, you, the West, you, the Christians.

301. You can't help but feel that there is something that you can do for me.

302. That you can save me.

303. And you don't yet know...

304. .. that I have endured your salvations so long,

305. I cannot afford it any more.

306. Not another moment of your salvation.

307. [Film-maker] But I'm not saying it's...

308. And that I... I... I...

309. ..I can save you.

310. I know something about you.

311. Right on. Tell him. Give it to him!

312. I know something about you. You don't know anything about me.

313. - Amen. - Right on.

314. And that is where it really is.

315. You could find out like this.

316. It's a matter almost of a division of - how can I put it?

317. - Division of labor. - Division of labor, thank you.

318. He can do some things that you can't do.

319. You can do some things that he can't do.

320. I can do some things that neither of you can do.

321. You know, I know I can't drive a truck. And I can't run a bank.

322. - And I can't count. - Right on.

323. You know. And I can't... I can't lead a movement.

324. But I can fuck up your mind.

325. He can straighten up your mind too.

326. What's gonna happen, sooner or later, all the wretched of the earth...

327. ..in one way or another...

328. ..next Tuesday or next Wednesday...

329. .. will destroy the cobblestones

330. on which London and Rome and Paris are built.

331. The world will change, because it has to change.

332. And the Pope will die...

333. .. because the church is a criminal church.

334. The party is over.

335. That is what is going to happen.

336. - Right on. - Right on.

337. [Film-maker] It was only after this group witness

338. that Baldwin finally agreed to talk personally

339. about his difficult position

340. as a political figure and a creative writer.

341. After all, no-one asked me to be a writer.

342. You know, I asked for it.

343. So, you know, I can't, I can't really complain.

344. You know, it comes with the territory.

345. I was born a certain time, in a certain skin, in a certain place.

346. And you pay for it. Everybody pays for... that.

347. [Film-maker] Do you think you could describe yourself

348. as a revolutionary writer?

349. I don't know what I am. I'm a writer in a revolutionary situation.

350. I never thought of becoming a revolutionary, after all.

351. [Film-maker] You express your ideas

352. in terms of mental transformation on the part of white people.

353. How much do you think your fictional work

354. is therefore stronger than your essays?

355. In that they are more subversive.

356. It's a leading question, and it's impossible for anybody...

357. You know, I can't answer that.

358. I write the essays, I write the books,

359. and what you make of them is...

360. What people make of those things isn't up to me.

361. I know that, in principle...

362. .. um...

363. a play or a novel, if it works,

364. is much more dangerous, for the writer and the reader.

365. [Film-maker] It's much easier to dismiss The Fire Next Time

366. as an argument with which one can agree or disagree, like a debate,

367. Whereas, in another country,

368. you're faced with some very real human situations

369. with which no-one can not identify in some way or another.

370. It depends on many things.

371. Many people can fail to identify with the people in another country.

372. In fact, they do.

373. You know, I mean, in life, I mean, I'm not talking about my book.

374. [Film-maker] But, I mean, everybody's been in love...

375. Has everyone been in love?

376. Everyone's had a love which has been threatened, don't you think that so?

377. Not on the basis of the evidence.

378. If they have, they've forgotten it.

379. You can't prove it by me, that everyone's been in love.

380. If everyone had been in love, they'd treat their children differently.

381. They'd treat each other differently.

382. [Film-maker] Yes, well, perhaps that is one of the points

383. in Another Country, which, it seems to me,

384. is as much about love as about anything else.

385. - It is about love. - It's more...

386. It's about the price of love, too.

387. [Film-maker] Which is the price of life.

388. Yes. People don't seem to realize that.

389. In a literal sense, you're writing for white people.

390. Are you aware of that?

391. I'm writing for people, baby.

392. I don't believe in white people.

393. I don't believe in Black people either, for that matter.

394. But I know the difference between being Black and white at this time.

395. It means that I cannot fool myself about some things

396. that I could fool myself about, if I were white.

397. [Film-maker] But more white people read your novels, I believe, than Black people.

398. Well, Black people may not read them, but they steal them.

399. They sell them, they're hot, in bars.

400. [Film-maker] You do spend a long time between novels. Why is that?

401. Well, I'm that kind of writer. There's no answer to that.

402. You know, some people write... I wish I was Georges Simenon,

403. he can write them in two weeks, but I can't.

404. And, you know, everybody works the way he can work.

405. I must point out, though, too,

406. that I have been working, the last few years,

407. between assassinations.

408. And that doesn't make it any easier either.

409. I mean, they're killing my friends.

410. It's as simple as that.

411. And have been all the years I've been alive.

412. For no reasons which, you know, which have any validity.

413. [Film-maker] Why didn't you just want to get away somewhere

414. and sit down and write your books? Why don't you want to do that?

415. Because I'm better than that.

416. [Film-maker] But you don't have to be better than that.

417. Oh, I do.

418. So, you don't agree, then, I mean, when people say, "Oh, it's okay for him.

419. "He's escaped"?

420. What have I escaped?

421. Where, anyway, would I go to escape?

422. To your country?

423. Would I get a political asylum here?

424. Where would a fleeing Black man go...

425. .. if he wanted to escape?

426. There may not be, you know,

427. as much humanity in the world as one would like to see,

428. but there is some.

429. There's more than one would think.

430. In any case, if you...

431. if you break faith with what you know...

432. .. that's a betrayal of many, many, many, many people.

433. I may know six people, but that's enough.

434. Love has never been a popular movement

435. and no-one's ever wanted really to be free.

436. The world is held together, really it is, held together,

437. by the love and the passion of a very few people.

438. Otherwise, of course you can despair.

439. Walk down the street of any city, any afternoon, and look around you.

440. What you've got to remember is what you're looking at is also you.

441. Everyone you're looking at is also you.

442. You could be that person.

443. You could be that monster, you could be that cop.

444. And you have to decide, in yourself, not to be.

445. The logic of despair isn't for me. Cut your throat, right?

446. But there's something wrong, you know,

447. with someone who says he's in despair who keeps on writing.

448. Because a despairing man doesn't write.

449. Anyway, it's too easy, it's too fashionable.

450. I'm aware, you know, that I and the people I love may perish in the morning.

451. I know that. But there's light on our faces now.

452. If you live under the shadow of death, it gives you a certain freedom.

453. I'm perfectly happy, odd as it sounds, and relatively free.