Waco: The Aftermath 1x5

1. suspenseful music plays

2. Anhydrous hydrazine.

3. Ammonium nitrate.

4. Nitromethane.

5. Nitromethane.

6. Ammonium nitrate.

7. Oh, shit.

8. Shit.

9. suspenseful music plays

10. Come on, man. We gotta go.

11. suspenseful music plays

12. theme music plays

13. Defense calls FBI Supervisory

14. Special Agent Gary Noesner to the stand.

15. As the lead negotiator for the FBI,

16. how many hours did you spend

17. on the phone with the Davidians?

18. Uh, it's hard to say, definitively. Hundreds.

19. Seems like you got to know them pretty well then.

20. I guess so.

21. Well enough to get some of them to come out.

22. Yes.

23. Uh, 35 people came out during the siege

24. including 21 children.

25. How did you do that?

26. Get so many people out?

27. You build trust over time.

28. You start small, you give them something,

29. in return they give something.

30. You compromise.

31. Trust.

32. Uh-hmm.

33. Was it difficult to build that trust

34. when other members of your team

35. were cutting the power to the Davidians' home,

36. or rolling tanks over their cars,

37. or using sleep deprivation techniques,

38. like, uh, blasting floodlights or music throughout the night?

39. Yeah, my team, the negotiation team,

40. worked in conjunction with the tactical team, HRT.

41. And although our efforts were coordinated,

42. sometimes we took different approaches.

43. And that relationship with HRT,

44. would you describe it as, um...

45. adversarial?

46. But just remember, the ATF's not gonna be around

47. - to take the blame this time. - I don't give a shit!

48. Uh, it could get heated,

49. but we always had the same objective.

50. To get everyone out safely.

51. Now, days before the final raid,

52. you had reached an agreement with the Davidians

53. regarding their surrender, correct?

54. David had promised to come out before and never did.

55. It's not uncommon in situations like this

56. for people to say one thing and do another.

57. So the FBI didn't believe

58. the Davidians were gonna come out

59. and a decision was made to go in.

60. Who made that decision?

61. The Attorney General.

62. In a meeting on April 12th?

63. Sure.

64. Were you at that meeting?

65. I was not.

66. Was anyone from the negotiations team there?

67. - No. - Why not?

68. If you were a team,

69. why wasn't half the team at this very important meeting?

70. You'd have to ask them.

71. But you supported the decision they came to,

72. to raid Mount Carmel on the 19th?

73. Leadership felt it was the best way

74. to avoid more loss of life.

75. I'm not asking what leadership thought.

76. I'm asking for your personal opinion.

77. Be careful, Mr. Cogdell.

78. On April 16th,

79. do you remember Steve Schneider

80. asking you for a computer?

81. Yes.

82. And why did he want that?

83. Uh, he said it would help Koresh write the Seven Seals out,

84. and once that was done, they'd come out.

85. This is a request you made for the computer.

86. Is that your signature there at the bottom?

87. Yes.

88. And the date next to the signature?

89. April 16th.

90. So, four days after a decision had been made

91. to conduct the raid on Mount Carmel,

92. you requested a new computer

93. - for Steve Schneider? - Yes.

94. And how long does it normally take

95. for a request like that to go through?

96. - A week or so. - A week.

97. So you ordered a new computer

98. knowing that it wouldn't arrive until after the raid?

99. - Well— - Why do that?

100. Why order something

101. knowing that it wouldn't arrive until after the raid?

102. Unless you didn't know the raid was coming.

103. I don't recall exactly when I was told about the raid.

104. You didn't know. They didn't tell you

105. because they knew you'd be against it.

106. Leadership made a tactical decision.

107. It wasn't a tactical decision, it was an emotional one.

108. They were getting embarrassed on national TV

109. and they were sick of it.

110. No, they just felt Koresh wasn't serious about coming out

111. and they believed they were out of options.

112. Because you failed?

113. I don't believe negotiators ever fail.

114. We either solve a situation

115. or we create more time for HRT to prepare.

116. HRT cited and I quote,

117. "Once negotiations failed, we were left with no choice."

118. That wasn't my assessment of the situation.

119. They gave you 51 days, didn't they?

120. That's a pretty long run to wind up with nothing.

121. I wouldn't call it nothing.

122. We got 35 people out.

123. And who knows?

124. Maybe you could've gotten another 35

125. if you weren't running over their cars.

126. - That wasn't us. - That wasn't the FBI?

127. No, it was the FBI, but it wasn't my team.

128. Oh, so that doesn't count?

129. For Christ's sake, why don't you just ask it?

130. Excuse me?

131. I know where you're heading with all this.

132. Cut to the chase, just ask the question.

133. Uhm, what question would you like me to ask?

134. Objection!

135. Overruled.

136. You wanna know if it was inevitable,

137. if they were planning to die all along.

138. So you should just ask me.

139. Was it inevitable?

140. No, it was not.

141. They were running out of water and resolve.

142. And I believe that without the tactical maneuvers

143. and a little more time,

144. we could have gotten a lot more of them out,

145. perhaps all of them.

146. Did you tell that to leadership?

147. I did.

148. And that's why they didn't bring me

149. to meet the Attorney General.

150. That's why I was rotated out.

151. Some FBI leaders were tired of the press

152. and the attention.

153. The American public was tired of it.

154. Everyone was tired.

155. The FBI wanted it over at any cost.

156. Holy shit.

157. Uh, no further questions, Your Honor.

158. dramatic music plays

159. I have one question for you

160. and I better like your answer.

161. Why were you in Andy's trailer?

162. That was yours?

163. That was Andy's?

164. I mean, I didn't—

165. I was—I was—I'm stupid, I was high

166. and then I just went into the wrong trailer.

167. When I realized I was in the wrong place, I left.

168. Is that a crime?

169. Go ahead. Search me. Go search my stuff.

170. I didn't take nothin'.

171. suspenseful music plays

172. What's the downside of killing her right here?

173. I know she saw something in my trailer

174. she shouldn't have.

175. suspenseful music plays

176. Hey, no!

177. You might hit the dogs!

178. Auf! Auf!

179. Blind 'em, I swear to God! These are good dogs,

180. but call them or I'll fuck them up!

181. Come on here!

182. suspenseful music plays

183. There are 75 ATF agents

184. around our building and they're shooting at us!

185. There's women and children in here,

186. and they're—call it off!

187. This is Sheriff Harwell.

188. - Sheriff! - Wayne.

189. We got women and children in danger!

190. - Wayne! - Tell them to pull back!

191. That call was placed by Wayne Martin

192. moments after the ATF raid began.

193. Wayne Martin isn't here to tell you about it today

194. because he was burned alive 51 days later.

195. Every case,

196. every trial asks a question...

197. and it's up to you the jury to answer that question

198. for the rest of the world.

199. I thought I knew what the question of this trial was.

200. See, I thought the question of this trial was,

201. "Does the United States government

202. have the right to attack its own citizens?"

203. It's a scary question when you say it out loud.

204. But that's not the question.

205. Because the government already believes

206. it has that right.

207. The real question

208. that you the jury are tasked with answering today is this,

209. "When the United States government

210. comes for you and your family

211. with no plan for peaceful surrender,

212. do you have the right to defend yourselves?"

213. That is what's at stake here today.

214. For you...

215. for all of us.

216. dramatic music plays

217. You are really brave.

218. Well, I'm a badass, Gary. What can I say?

219. Do you know what tipped them off to you?

220. No, I don't know.

221. Maybe they saw me at Andy's house.

222. What? Wait.

223. You went to Andy the German's house?

224. Yeah, I snuck in there when no one was looking.

225. You shouldn't have done that.

226. Well, I found something, so you're welcome.

227. He had a notebook, okay?

228. With a bunch of science-type stuff like chemicals.

229. What kind of chemicals?

230. Nitromethane...

231. anhyzahydrizone.

232. Anhydrous hydrazine?

233. That's racing fuel.

234. And adaman—admantium...

235. Nitrous...

236. Ammonium nitrate.

237. That's it.

238. - Fertilizer. - Racing fuel and fertilizer.

239. That's the same combination they use in The Turner Diaries

240. to build their bomb.

241. tense music plays

242. Robert Kling.

243. Hey, happy early birthday.

244. What?

245. April 19th, coming up quick.

246. suspenseful music plays

247. There you go.

248. You boys drive safe.

249. I received another vision from God.

250. That's wonderful.

251. Well, I'm not sure everyone will agree with you.

252. What He's asking...

253. a lot of people might say it's wrong.

254. We don't judge you for what He asks you to do.

255. Thanks, Clive. That's very comforting.

256. dramatic music plays

257. Clive Doyle, get up.

258. The verdict's in.

259. dramatic music plays

260. Dad, can I ask you something?

261. Of course.

262. Is everything David says the word of God?

263. Or sometimes is he wrong?

264. David hears the voice of God.

265. And you believe everything he says,

266. even when it's something strange?

267. All rise.

268. Has the jury reached a verdict?

269. We have, Your Honor.

270. The jury rules as follows.

271. On the first count,

272. conspiracy to murder federal agents,

273. the jury finds all four defendants...

274. not guilty.

275. On the second count of aiding

276. and abetting the murder of federal agents,

277. the jury finds all four defendants...

278. not guilty.

279. On the count of using an illegal firearm

280. in the commission of a crime,

281. the jury finds Paul Fatta,

282. Livingstone Fagan,

283. and Ruth Riddle...

284. guilty.

285. dramatic music plays

286. What does that mean?

287. It means you've been cleared of all charges.

288. You'll be free to go in a couple of hours.

289. But what about the others?

290. Order in the court. Order.

291. It just doesn't— there's something.

292. Your Honor,

293. we'd like to ask the court to reconsider that last verdict.

294. On what grounds?

295. On the grounds that it doesn't make a lick of sense

296. to be convicted of using an illegal firearm

297. to commit a crime

298. when you weren't convicted of the actual crime.

299. Well, that's not for us to say.

300. - The jury ruled— - Hang on. Hang on.

301. Hang on. Mr. Cogdell is right.

302. How can I be guilty of using a weapon

303. during a crime if that crime never happened?

304. Interesting legal paradox.

305. But... I agree with the defense.

306. I'm vacating the convictions on the firearms charges.

307. The defendants are to be released.

308. Yes.

309. dramatic music plays

310. Are you sure?

311. I'll tell David.

312. David. David.

313. George Roden has been put in a mental hospital,

314. because of his outburst in court.

315. upbeat rock music plays

316. You know what that means?

317. I think there's something you should know

318. I think it's time I told you so

319. There's something deep inside of me

320. There's someone else I've got to be

321. Take back your picture in a frame

322. Take back your singing in the rain

323. I just hope you understand

324. Sometimes the clothes do not make the man

325. All we have to do now

326. Is take these lies

327. And make them true somehow

328. All we have to see

329. Is that I don't belong to you

330. And you don't belong to me yeah, yeah

331. Freedom

332. Freedom...

333. God has given me this land

334. and everything on it.

335. I'll give you all ten minutes to get off my property.

336. Or what?

337. Or we do this mean.

338. We're gonna live here by God's laws,

339. not by man's weakness anymore.

340. Those of you who wanna stay, can stay.

341. But there's gonna be some new rules.

342. No drugs, no drinking, no smoking, no sex.

343. If you stay, you stay to study your Bible,

344. to find a new way, a better way.

345. And if that doesn't interest you,

346. well, it's time you found a new doorway to darken.

347. Oh, excuse me.

348. Hey, Mitch.

349. I got nothing to say to you.

350. Okay. Look, I know you're pissed.

351. I need your support on something.

352. Yeah, well, you can't have it.

353. Please, just hear me out.

354. You took internal bureau discussions

355. and you aired it to the world, Gary,

356. you made us look like amateurs.

357. Indecisive, spiteful little—

358. - I told the truth. - You made us weaker.

359. People don't expect the government to be perfect, okay?

360. But they do expect us to be accountable.

361. You think I'm not accountable?

362. You think I'm not accountable?

363. You had the luxury

364. of criticizing from the sidelines, Gary.

365. You got to leave.

366. I didn't. I stayed,

367. made the tough call, and watched those people die.

368. And I got to live with that.

369. What, you think you're the only one

370. still dealing with the consequences of Waco?

371. I still dream about it every night, Gary.

372. So do I!

373. But you know what, Mitch?

374. I think that's what we deserve.

375. What happened at Waco, it affected all of us.

376. It affected the entire country.

377. And I know you understand what I'm talking about.

378. We both saw the protesters at Mount Carmel.

379. We saw the increased militia presence

380. and that has only gotten worse since the fire.

381. And I believe that these people

382. are planning an attack, something big.

383. And I need the bureau's support to look deeper into it,

384. but I can't get it alone.

385. I need your help.

386. What do you mean by attack?

387. The advantage that we've had in dealing with these groups

388. is handling them one at a time, sir.

389. If Gary's right

390. and they started communicating with each other

391. through extensive fax networks,

392. there's a real chance they could morph

393. into some kind of headless terrorist network.

394. If Gary's intel is good,

395. I think we need to take a closer look.

396. If the Intel is good.

397. That's a pretty big "if."

398. You're asking me to go way out on a limb here

399. based on the word

400. of an unsanctioned CI nobody has met.

401. Well, I think the intel is good.

402. - I trust her. - I know you trust her.

403. But before I go deeper into this,

404. I need to meet her myself.

405. Okay.

406. You're gonna do great.

407. So you're this mystery CI

408. I've heard so much about.

409. Yes, sir. Nice to meet you.

410. And how did you get to know this group?

411. The Aryan Brotherhood?

412. Uh, well, I was dating this guy.

413. His name was Wild Bill.

414. Uh, he liked to rob banks, do all kinds

415. of crazy shit like that.

416. Um, yeah, but then one night we got into an argument

417. and he beat me up pretty bad.

418. I still can't see super good out of this eye, you know.

419. And that, that pissed me off.

420. So I narced on him.

421. No offense.

422. None taken. We're not narcs.

423. We're Feds.

424. Oh, yeah, that's much better,

425. sort of.

426. So, this place, this Elohim City,

427. you think they're building a bomb of some kind?

428. Yes.

429. Uh, they—there-there was a bunch of chemicals

430. that could be used to build a bomb

431. written down in Andy the German's notebook.

432. Um, and they talk a lot

433. about making the government pay for what happened at Waco.

434. Have you been in contact with Wild Bill

435. since he was arrested?

436. No, sir.

437. That's over.

438. Hmm.

439. So if I told you that I had the phone logs

440. from Arkansas State Penitentiary,

441. where Wild Bill is incarcerated,

442. would that change your answer?

443. I might have called him a few times.

444. - How many? - Um, I don't know for sure.

445. - More than five? - Maybe.

446. - More than ten? - Maybe.

447. This Aryan Brotherhood,

448. they just let you live there

449. and read their notebooks with no problem.

450. No.

451. They almost killed me. I had to run.

452. Did anyone see this?

453. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did. - Huh.

454. You know, there's been a lot of chatter

455. from groups like these,

456. you know, saying things,

457. like, um, they wish the FBI would dare

458. try something like we did at Waco.

459. Have you heard any of those people

460. saying anything like that?

461. I-I don't know.

462. Not-not-not in those words exactly.

463. Did they ask you to tell us this?

464. Why would they? I don't understand.

465. To goad us into maybe another conflict.

466. You know, something they can all rally around.

467. Did they ask you to tell us this?

468. No, I'm telling the truth. Okay?

469. Hey. Uh, could we have a moment, please?

470. Come on. What, what are you doing?

471. She's been through a lot for us.

472. - For you. - No, for all of us.

473. She's a good kid.

474. If I knew you were gonna berate her like this—

475. It does not matter

476. if everything she says is true

477. if she can't hold it together on the stand.

478. Well, I can work with her. I can get her to calm down.

479. We cannot afford another Waco.

480. It's over.

481. I gave you your time.

482. They're not gonna pursue it.

483. Did I screw up?

484. No.

485. No, he had his mind made up

486. before we even walked in the room.

487. You have somewhere to go?

488. No, I don't.

489. You know, you asked me once

490. how a nice girl like me wound up

491. in a place like Elohim City.

492. Was easy.

493. They're the only ones that wanted me.

494. And, Gary, if we ever cross paths again,

495. you act like you don't know me,

496. safer that way, okay?

497. Good luck to you, Carol.

498. upbeat blues music playing

499. I've spent too long

500. Away from home

501. Did all the things

502. I could have done...

503. - Oh. - Oh.

504. - Let me get four more. - Yeah.

505. Hey, is Jocelyn working tonight?

506. She, she usually works Tuesdays.

507. - The waitress? - Yeah.

508. She quit this morning.

509. And I was gonna propose to her tonight.

510. Yeah. She seemed cool,

511. kind of came out of nowhere.

512. She begged for the job a couple of months back.

513. - Yeah. - Then just up and quit.

514. Wait, when did you say she started working here again?

515. Just after New Year's, I think.

516. Like January 7th, like when we started working here?

517. Could have been.

518. That son of a bitch.

519. - Excuse me, Mr. Cogdell. - What? Oh, yeah.

520. You have a call up front.

521. Hello.

522. Yeah, what's up?

523. The judge did what?

524. But their streets

525. Did not feel

526. Like mine

527. So long...

528. What do you say we get out of here?

529. It sounds good to me.

530. Goin' home...

531. Wait a sec. Wait a sec.

532. Stop.

533. - What's wrong? - What's going on?

534. Need to take you back inside,

535. your release has been delayed.

536. Delayed? What do you— what do you mean?

537. - No, it's over. - No, they, they said

538. - she was not guilty. - Hands behind your back.

539. - No. - Sir, the-the judge

540. - already said that she— - No. No.

541. No, no, but I'm free.

542. - You can't do this. I'm free. - Let's go.

543. - I'm free! - We'll figure it out, Ruth,

544. - it's— - I'm free.

545. No.

546. I'm free!

547. I'm free!

548. I have had some time to reflect

549. and I believe now I was too hasty

550. in my initial decision to vacate the convictions

551. on the weapons charges.

552. Thus, I am reinstating them now and we'll move on

553. - to sentencing. - What?

554. Your Honor, this seems wildly outside of the—

555. Please don't interrupt me, Mr. Cogdell.

556. But you're finding them guilty of a—of a non-existent crime,

557. of a crime that you yourself were willing to vacate.

558. There is no reason to set aside these guilty findings merely

559. because the verdicts cannot be rationally reconciled.

560. I'm sorry, are you serious?

561. You're supporting a decision

562. that you're admitting is irrational?

563. If they were found guilty

564. of using a weapon in the commission of a crime

565. then by that verdict,

566. they must also be guilty of the crime

567. the weapon was used in.

568. But they were found not guilty of that crime.

569. I have made my decision. Take a seat.

570. But that doesn't make any sense.

571. I said I am ready

572. to move on to sentencing.

573. The only person

574. to show any contrition was Ruth Riddle,

575. and as someone who was clearly manipulated

576. by Mr. Koresh,

577. you're not entirely to blame

578. for your actions.

579. Therefore, I am ordering you

580. to be committed to the custody

581. of the US Bureau of Prisons

582. for a term of five years.

583. - Five years? - Paul Fatta.

584. I'm ordering you committed to the custody

585. of the US Bureau of Prisons

586. for a term of 15 years.

587. - But I wasn't even there! - Quiet.

588. - I-I wasn't even there! - Quiet!

589. Livingstone Fagan, 40 years.

590. - Forty? What? - Your Honor,

591. there's no way this outcome was the jury's intention.

592. They made their intention clear with their verdict.

593. You know what? This isn't justice.

594. This is the government demanding their pound of flesh.

595. They, they can't stand to let our clients walk away

596. and they're getting you to do their dirty work.

597. Another word and I will fine you a thousand dollars, Mr. Cogdell.

598. I'm already broke. You can't get blood

599. - from a stone. - Don't be so sure.

600. That just cost you a thousand dollars.

601. People will remember this.

602. This will be the first line on your obituary someday.

603. Don't you wanna be on the right side of this?

604. Another grand. The next time you speak,

605. I will ask the bailiff to remove you

606. from the courtroom.

607. Okay, okay.

608. All right. Okay.

609. Furthermore, Paul Fatta, Livingstone Fagan,

610. and Ruth Riddle, upon your release,

611. you must pay the US government restitution

612. in the amount of $1,131,687...

613. Oh, that is bullshit.

614. The people decided this was wrong

615. that what the government did was wrong.

616. If you answer that judgment by steamrolling them,

617. you're just asking to have this happen again!

618. - I am applying the law. - The law is supposed to be fair!

619. I decide what is fair!

620. It is not my job to cater to the moral fringe—

621. It's not your job

622. - to subvert the will of society! - Bailiff, please

623. take Mr. Cogdell out of my courtroom.

624. Who got to you? We need to be asking questions

625. about how this had to go.

626. We need to question the government...

627. - Order! Order! - ... and the people that made

628. the decisions that led to this tragedy.

629. Who got to you? Who got to you?

630. dramatic music plays

631. Ladies and gentlemen,

632. my decision is made and my decision is final.

633. Court adjourned.

634. Hell of a case, wasn't it?

635. Are you here to rub it in?

636. Because I'm happy to add an assault charge to this.

637. No. No, I'm not here for that.

638. You were a worthy opponent.

639. Well, that's a nice consolation,

640. seeing as the wheels of justice

641. just ran right over my clients.

642. Everything I did was above board.

643. Oh, really? Even Jocelyn?

644. - Who? - The pretty waitress at the bar.

645. Don't tell me she wasn't a spy.

646. Well, I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

647. But if she was, she wasn't with us.

648. Man, what do you want?

649. I'd like to prosecute the ATF for perjury.

650. And I could use someone from outside the system

651. to help me.

652. I might be able to make a little time for that.

653. You might think that what you see here

654. is a rundown old shell of what this place used to be.

655. But your eyes lie to you.

656. I alone see the truth.

657. This land right here under your feet,

658. it's not land at all.

659. It's a doorway

660. through which we will change the whole world.

661. When I look around at these old broken buildings,

662. I see the building blocks of one giant house

663. that we will build right here together.

664. One giant house that we will all live in together as one.

665. You believe it, don't you?

666. You believe it still.

667. Don't you, Clive?

668. dramatic music plays

669. Yes...

670. I do.

671. So now the FBI's sending agents to spy on us as we mourn?

672. No. I'm not here for the FBI.

673. I'm here for me.

674. I care about what happened to you.

675. That's why I'm here today.

676. Maybe you could say some words to that effect.

677. Okay.

678. I was the lead negotiator here at Waco.

679. Sometimes I feel like I never left.

680. This place,

681. these events...

682. will stay with me forever.

683. Now, I know there may be some of you here today

684. and there's others that believe that the FBI came here

685. and just wanted to purposely see everybody get killed.

686. We didn't want that.

687. None of us wanted that.

688. So if we didn't want it to turn out this way,

689. and neither did you,

690. then how could it,

691. when nobody wanted it?

692. A religious friend of mine proposed once

693. that maybe it was evil that made it happen.

694. And I suppose he was right,

695. but not necessarily in the way he meant,

696. because I believe that the whole idea of evil,

697. it keeps us from seeing a thing clearly.

698. It blinds us,

699. because the evil is never on our side.

700. It's always the other guys.

701. I think what's closer to the truth

702. is that we were scared,

703. and you were scared.

704. And then we called you evil

705. and you called us evil,

706. and then we both stopped seeing each other

707. and communicating.

708. And that's when the tragedy came.

709. And now, it keeps me awake at night

710. worrying that if we cannot find a better way

711. to remember that, that even though

712. we might disagree

713. or be on opposite sides of a thing,

714. we are all fallible people.

715. I make mistakes and so do you.

716. We're more the same than we are different.

717. A great divide opened here among us

718. and I'm here today to push against that divide.

719. And I hope...

720. that each and every one of you can help me in that effort...

721. or I don't know what will happen.

722. Your last meal request.

723. Any particular channel?

724. Yeah.

725. The news.

726. Miami Beach police are looking for a man in his 20s.

727. The shooting took place in front of several witnesses.

728. Please join us for a moment of silence,

729. as we toll the bell one time

730. for each life that was lost.

731. suspenseful music plays

732. suspenseful music plays

733. dramatic music plays

734. The bombing in Oklahoma City

735. was an attack on innocent children

736. and defenseless citizens.

737. It was an act of cowardice, and it was evil.

738. The United States will not tolerate it,

739. and I will not allow the people of this country

740. to be intimidated by evil cowards.

741. I have met with our team

742. which we assembled to deal with this bombing,

743. and I have determined to take the following steps

744. to ensure the strongest response to this situation.

745. First, I have deployed a crisis-management team

746. under the leadership of the FBI,

747. working with the Department of Justice...

748. theme music plays

749. MTV