1. Tickel's dead!Copy !req
2. I need to have the e-mail.
I'll do it.Copy !req
3. Are you for the chop, Mrs Murray?Copy !req
4. Ha-ha! Very funny!Copy !req
5. Quiet Batpeople
on every fucking paper!Copy !req
6. What are you doing at my computer?Copy !req
7. I'm bringing down Mannion
by leaking an e-mail.Copy !req
8. Mr Tickel's medical records
were illegally acquired.Copy !req
9. I have decided
to stand down as leader.Copy !req
10. The Guardian have received
an e-mail from FergusCopy !req
11. with all of our comments
about Mr Tickel underneath.Copy !req
12. You were supposed to redact it,
send the top e-mail,Copy !req
13. not the whole fucking exchange!Copy !req
14. If a government can't leak,
do you know what happens?Copy !req
15. Dark shit builds up.Copy !req
16. What the fuck is going on?
There's going to be an inquiry.Copy !req
17. And then it bursts!Copy !req
18. This is an inquiry into the death
of Mr Douglas Tickel,Copy !req
19. and the practice and culture
of the dissemination
of confidential informationCopy !req
20. between political parties
and the public media.Copy !req
21. Mr Weir.Copy !req
22. Thank you, Lord Goolding.Copy !req
23. Our first witness today is,
er, is Mr Stewart Pearson.Copy !req
24. No, it's... It's fine.Copy !req
25. Er, yeah, um, I, Stewart Pearson,
do sincerely declare and affirmCopy !req
26. that the evidence I shall give
will be the truth, the whole truth,Copy !req
27. and, and nothing but,
er, the truth.Copy !req
28. On page 235
of your witness statement,Copy !req
29. you describe yourself as the,
the human router in government.Copy !req
30. Can you, er, can you explain
what you meant by that?Copy !req
31. Um, I'm a-a routerCopy !req
32. in the sense that I control
the governmental, informationalCopy !req
33. ingestion and egestion process.Copy !req
34. Mr Pearson just to clarify...Copy !req
35. your job is to make sure
that the public perceptionCopy !req
36. of your government's programme
is a positive one. Is that fair?Copy !req
37. It's not about perception. Yeah?Copy !req
38. I believe in government
as a transceiver, hm?Copy !req
39. Transceiver.Copy !req
40. Yeah, it's really important, sure,
to give out a strong signal,Copy !req
41. but to be effective,
you've got to listen for an echo.Copy !req
42. Could you possibly
speak in plain English?Copy !req
43. I'm sorry, I-I thought I was.Copy !req
44. So what IS clear is that
you are an important man, Mr Pearson.Copy !req
45. I'm just a lad from Leeds
with a lust for life, yeah?Copy !req
46. There's an African proverb
that's stuck with me, yeah?Copy !req
47. "If you think you're too small
to make a difference,Copy !req
48. "you've never spent a night
with a mosquito."Copy !req
49. So... part of your job...Copy !req
50. is to make sure that the government's
message gets across clearly?Copy !req
51. Is that right?Copy !req
52. That's correct.Copy !req
53. And despite the sarcasm marinating
that question, I'm very successful
in that endeavour.Copy !req
54. No, there was no sarcasm
intended at all, Mr Pearson.Copy !req
55. Sorry, I must have
misread your... face.Copy !req
56. Does your job
intrude on your home life?Copy !req
57. No.Copy !req
58. No, when I close the front door,
I...Copy !req
59. I'm no longer Stewart Pearson.Copy !req
60. When you, when you...Copy !req
61. I mean, when I... when I close
it from the... from the inside.Copy !req
62. You know, when I close it
from the outside then I...Copy !req
63. then I very much AM Stewart Pearson.Copy !req
64. So who are you at home?Copy !req
65. Er, I'm a husband,Copy !req
66. I'm a... pardon me, a lover,Copy !req
67. I'm a carpenter, I'm a cook,
I'm a flautist.Copy !req
68. A-a...? A flautist.Copy !req
69. Right. I play the flute.Copy !req
70. And I dabble on the Irish bodhran.Copy !req
71. Erm, and would you like to express
any remorse for Mr Tickel's death?Copy !req
72. What would you like to say
to his family?Copy !req
73. Er, I would like to offer them
maximum respect, you know?Copy !req
74. And maximum remorse.Copy !req
75. And maximum assurance that Mr Tickel
did not die in vain.Copy !req
76. We're here. You know?Copy !req
77. How can we make the government
and the media inclusive
without being intrusive? Yeah...Copy !req
78. And if we can answer that,Copy !req
79. at least we can make sure
there are no more Mr Tickels.Copy !req
80. I mean that... I mean that
not in the sense of, you know,Copy !req
81. wiping out the Tickel family name.Copy !req
82. I mean it in the sense that nothing
like this will ever happen again.Copy !req
83. Hello, Mr Pearson. Hi.Copy !req
84. Tab 28 in your bundle there,
page 263...Copy !req
85. a paper that you presented in
2006, The Iconography of Consensus.Copy !req
86. Would you care to summarise
the argument you present there?Copy !req
87. Sure, yeah, the main thrust...
Bearing in mind Lord Goolding's
desire for plainness and clarity.Copy !req
88. Right. OK.Copy !req
89. Er, I hypothesise that...Copy !req
90. Sorry.Copy !req
91. I say...Copy !req
92. that the design structure
for a parliamentary democracyCopy !req
93. should be that
of the Pompidou Centre.Copy !req
94. Morally and structurally
explicit and open,Copy !req
95. a porous membrane.Copy !req
96. Maybe just a little bit plainer,
Mr Pearson.Copy !req
97. People...Copy !req
98. should know, er...Copy !req
99. what politicians are doing.Copy !req
100. Brilliant.Copy !req
101. Thanks.Copy !req
102. Government should be porous?Copy !req
103. Yes. But not leaking?Copy !req
104. Come on. If someone is determined
to leak information,Copy !req
105. there's nothing that anyone
can do about that.Copy !req
106. So as Director of Communications,Copy !req
107. you are unable to prevent
sensitive materialCopy !req
108. being communicated to journalists?Copy !req
109. If someone chokes on a packet
of crisps, do you issue an arrest
warrant for Gary Lineker?Copy !req
110. Is it fair to say that you
have in fact changed nothing,Copy !req
111. and government communications
carries on exactly as they did
before, by leaks and whispers?Copy !req
112. No, it is not fair to say that.Copy !req
113. In fact, as you disapprove
and condemn these practices,Copy !req
114. are they not more covert
and more hidden and more secret
than ever before?Copy !req
115. I think that is also
an unreasonable assertion.Copy !req
116. In spite of your desire to create
a political Pompidou Centre,Copy !req
117. haven't you created
the opposite, Centrepoint?Copy !req
118. Everybody sees it looming over them,
but nobody has any idea what happens
inside.Copy !req
119. I think there's some kind of club
on the top floor.Copy !req
120. So, Mr Pearson, have you identified
the source of the leak...Copy !req
121. No... of Mr Tickel's records?Copy !req
122. No. Have you ever leaked yourself?Copy !req
123. No.Copy !req
124. No, I was, I was over that
pre-Britpop.Copy !req
125. Do you have any idea where the leak
might have come from?Copy !req
126. Well, you know,
if this was CSI Miami,Copy !req
127. I guess we'd be looking for the
person who had the most to gain
from the leak being made public.Copy !req
128. Well, er, despite your shirt,
this ISN'T CSI Miami.Copy !req
129. Who do you think would benefit
most from the leak?Copy !req
130. Well, I guess I'd be sending
David Caruso knocking on the door
of Mr Malcolm Tucker.Copy !req
131. Can I ask you,
how would you describe yourself?Copy !req
132. Er, I'm a media strategist.Copy !req
133. So you would be Stewart Pearson's
opposite number?Copy !req
134. Er, well, I'd be
Stewart Pearson's oppositeCopy !req
135. in every possible way, I think.Copy !req
136. You have a lot of control and power
over your party, don't you?Copy !req
137. Ah-ha!Copy !req
138. I wish, yes! Um, no.Copy !req
139. I think that that's been overstated.Copy !req
140. So this reputation you have
as an enforcer,Copy !req
141. that's completely
misrepresenting you, is it?Copy !req
142. It's baloney. Politicians who have to
do things that they don't want to do,Copy !req
143. such as resign...Copy !req
144. er, because they've been caught
with their fingers in the till,
or, you know,Copy !req
145. with their knickers up a flagpole
or whatever, they...Copy !req
146. sometimes it's very convenient
for them to have a bogeyman.Copy !req
147. "Malcolm made me do it."
Well, I didn't make them do it.Copy !req
148. These are people who just find
themselves stuck in a room
with one exit,Copy !req
149. and I simply show them the door.Copy !req
150. I've highlighted some quotes.Copy !req
151. The Guardian.Copy !req
152. "Malcolm Tucker
has the physical demeanour
and the political instinctsCopy !req
153. "of a velociraptor."Copy !req
154. Yes, The Guardian,
the newspaper that hates newspapers.Copy !req
155. Telegraph... The Telegr-arse.Copy !req
156. "Tucker's writ runs through
the lifeblood of WestminsterCopy !req
157. "like raw alcohol,
at once cleansing and corroding."Copy !req
158. The Times.Copy !req
159. "If you make eye contact
with Malcolm Tucker,Copy !req
160. "you have spilled his pint."Copy !req
161. The Spectator.
"Iago with a BlackBerry."Copy !req
162. I mean, you're saying these
quotes are, what, misguided?Copy !req
163. The Spectator...! Um...Copy !req
164. No, I'm saying you're taking these
out of context,
you're not contextualising these.Copy !req
165. If you were to put them
into a perspective, if you were
to place them into the landscape,Copy !req
166. you would see that there might be
a lot of axes being ground here.Copy !req
167. I don't see the difference between
what you have just done and a leak,
by the way.Copy !req
168. The difference is that
what I've just read out
was not obtained illegally.Copy !req
169. How do you know that?Copy !req
170. You don't know what confidences
have been breachedCopy !req
171. in order to form these opinions,
for that is what they are.Copy !req
172. So, you accept leaking
as part and parcel
of the political media machinery?Copy !req
173. Yes, I mean if you didn't
have leaking,Copy !req
174. the newspapers would just be
full of long-lense bikini shots,Copy !req
175. and adverts for sheds,
and offers to buy three pairs
of trousers for a tenner, etcetera.Copy !req
176. It's just... It's the way it is.
Big deal, no-one dies.Copy !req
177. One person did die, Mr Tucker.Copy !req
178. Would you tell us how it works?
You know, you do me a favour,
I do you a favour. Yeah?Copy !req
179. And what might you expect in return?Copy !req
180. Anything. What?Copy !req
181. Well, a Kit-Kat, you might get.Copy !req
182. I've had a Kit-Kat,
I've had, er, a-a big meal.Copy !req
183. Could you give us an example?Copy !req
184. Um... Well, yes.Copy !req
185. I...Copy !req
186. This is The Daily Mirror,Copy !req
187. and I could get drummed out of the
Magic Circle for showing you this.Copy !req
188. Anyway, this is The Daily Mirror...Copy !req
189. about the Quiet Batpeople,
er, policy of Mrs Nicola Murray.Copy !req
190. I was there that day. You can't see
me cos I've been cropped out here,Copy !req
191. but this information here,
I made sure that those notes
were in that place,Copy !req
192. that they were available,
and that the picture editor
knew where to find them.Copy !req
193. Sorry, I'm just trying to...
trying to get this clear.Copy !req
194. Was Mrs Murray not the subject of
huge derision as a result of this?Copy !req
195. Er, no she was a subject
of huge derision before this.Copy !req
196. But it was...Copy !req
197. You were, you were trying to
undermine the leader of your party?Copy !req
198. I was...Copy !req
199. Would you say you were a loyal man,
Mr Tucker?Copy !req
200. I'm loyal, yes.
I'm loyal to my partyCopy !req
201. and I feel that Mrs Murray's policies
were turning the party into...Copy !req
202. I don't know if you've seen those
calendars with pictures of dogs
that are dressed up in...Copy !req
203. They've got little dresses
and hats on?Copy !req
204. She was turning my party into that,
she was humiliating my party,Copy !req
205. so I thought it was
absolutely vitalCopy !req
206. to focus the public's attention
onto that.Copy !req
207. And yet you maintain that
you had great, I don't know, what,
respect for Mrs Murray as a person.Copy !req
208. Yeah. Yes. She was a great laugh
occasionally. Great dancer.Copy !req
209. She's got terrific... hair.Copy !req
210. She did a good job at DoSAC.Copy !req
211. A much better job than her successor,
who, let's not forget,Copy !req
212. was playing on a slide when the news
of Mr Tickel's death came out.Copy !req
213. Thank you, Mr Tucker,
we're well versed in the events
surrounding the death of Mr Tickel.Copy !req
214. So tell me,Copy !req
215. the PFI e-mail that led to the... to
the resignation of Nicola Murray.Copy !req
216. Did you... Did you engineer that?Copy !req
217. Mr Tucker? No. No.Copy !req
218. No, I didn't.Copy !req
219. And, er, the leaking of Mr Tickel's
health records?Copy !req
220. I mean, do I detect your hand
in that, for instance?Copy !req
221. No. No, no, no, no, no.Copy !req
222. Look, politics is a war,
and politicians,Copy !req
223. sometimes they lose
ideological limbs. Right?Copy !req
224. They get media shrapnel
right in the face.Copy !req
225. Sometimes they get a bullet
right in the brain.Copy !req
226. Civilians know there is no way that
I would ever attack a civilian,Copy !req
227. a real person,
and especially not somebodyCopy !req
228. with a history of mental illness.Copy !req
229. Because that sort of thing...Copy !req
230. makes me queasy.Copy !req
231. So you're an ethical... leaker?Copy !req
232. I use leaking to show up corruption,
to show up hypocrisy,Copy !req
233. to show up idiocy.Copy !req
234. And also the fourth horseman
of the political apocalypse,
duplicity.Copy !req
235. For instance, Fergus Williams...Copy !req
236. He's coming up next, right?
Mm-hmm.Copy !req
237. This is a guy,
he's a member of the junior party
in this coalition, right?Copy !req
238. This guy has already opened
a private channel to Dan Miller,Copy !req
239. the Leader of the Opposition,Copy !req
240. in order to talk about possibly
setting up a coalition with him,Copy !req
241. because he knows very well
that this coalition government
that he is lumbered withCopy !req
242. is being torn to pieces,
like a bread stick at a picnic.Copy !req
243. Mr Tucker,
you have just used this inquiryCopy !req
244. to commit a leak in front of us!Copy !req
245. I've not committed a leak!
Everybody in Westminster knows these
talks have taken place. Everyone.Copy !req
246. You're supposed to be investigating
this, discovering this stuff.Copy !req
247. Now, you cannot not know what I
or anyone else tell you. Right?Copy !req
248. You can't not know that. You cannot
not know what you now know.Copy !req
249. Mr Tucker, are you familiar with
the rules of association football?Copy !req
250. I understand if you're going
to have an affair you'd better
take precautions,Copy !req
251. like getting a superinjunction.
I ask you because this is me
giving you a yellow card.Copy !req
252. You're not to use this inquiry
to score political points.Copy !req
253. Sorry, I'm... I apologise.Copy !req
254. Did you see Mr Malcolm Tucker's
evidence earlier?Copy !req
255. Er, yeah, I, er, saw it
out of the corner of my eye.Copy !req
256. Do you want me to read what he said
about you? No, that's fine.
That was the bit that I saw.Copy !req
257. Embarrassing, I imagine.
Er, no, not at all.Copy !req
258. Er, it was,
er... almost flattering, yeah,Copy !req
259. to get, er, to get Tuckered.Copy !req
260. It's a right of passage
in... in... in politics.Copy !req
261. It happens to all of us, it's...Copy !req
262. You know, it's like when
you're in a Russian jail,
you get your face tattooed.Copy !req
263. Mr Tucker mentioned meetings
between you
and the Leader of the Opposition.Copy !req
264. Did these take place?Copy !req
265. They did, yes. Er, myself and AdamCopy !req
266. were part of a team who had very
general, non-committal discussionsCopy !req
267. with, amongst others... Mr Miller.Copy !req
268. And you discussed a potential
future coalition with his partyCopy !req
269. and the removal of your own party
leader, is that correct?Copy !req
270. Sorry, could I... possibly answer
that question with another question?Copy !req
271. I mean, not THAT question I'm just
asking but a further question.Copy !req
272. Go on.Copy !req
273. You do realise that YOU'RE being
spun here? You do see that?Copy !req
274. Spun? Cos, you know...Copy !req
275. Malcolm Tucker's not your common
or garden spin... doctor, right?Copy !req
276. No, he's the, he's
the chief medical officer of spin.Copy !req
277. He is Spinoza, you see,
so he'd... He had...Copy !req
278. He didn't come here in order
to answer your questions,Copy !req
279. he came here in order to get
you to then ask HIS questions...Copy !req
280. Mr Williams, I don't want you to
answer with another question, I want
you to answer it with an answer.Copy !req
281. He's conducting you like, um...Copy !req
282. Goldie.Copy !req
283. Did you talk to Mr Miller
about removing your party leader?Copy !req
284. Sorry, are you getting
Tucker's questions sort of beamed
straight into your brain?Copy !req
285. Mr Williams.Copy !req
286. Finally,
on the subject of frustration,Copy !req
287. would you say it's difficult to steer
policy ideas through your department?Copy !req
288. Huh...Copy !req
289. Er, yes, there are...Copy !req
290. blockages. There is one person
in particular,Copy !req
291. and, well, you know, I don't want
to identify her... or him,Copy !req
292. if she was a man,
but this particular person, er...Copy !req
293. is... er, rather inept,Copy !req
294. and has hampered
a lot of our initiatives,Copy !req
295. and she, or her-him, is,
um...Copy !req
296. very difficult to remove.Copy !req
297. And so she's a... He is a...Copy !req
298. They are a stubborn blockage,
shall we say,Copy !req
299. like, you know, when you get hair
and, um, soap in a plughole,Copy !req
300. with... skin flakes.Copy !req
301. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Williams.
That's, that's fine.Copy !req
302. Sorry, can I just say...
We are very pressed for time.Copy !req
303. Yeah, but I really didn't want
the last thing that I said, erm...Copy !req
304. I'm sorry... to be skin flakes.
Thank you.Copy !req
305. When did you first
become aware of Mr Tickel?Copy !req
306. When he became the only, erm,
key workerCopy !req
307. to refuse our offer
of alternative accommodation.Copy !req
308. Then he sort of dropped off my radar.Copy !req
309. The next thing I knew,
he was sewing badges on his tentCopy !req
310. and shouting abuse
through a loudhailer.Copy !req
311. Did you ever feel yourself
to be culpable in any way for his...Copy !req
312. for his homelessness?Copy !req
313. Look, he was homeless only in
the sense that he had no home. Er...Copy !req
314. No, no, a housing association
flat was found, which he declined.Copy !req
315. The POLICY didn't make him homeless.Copy !req
316. The policy of selling off
the block of flats where he lived.Copy !req
317. He made a positive decision
to be homeless.Copy !req
318. It's the difference between
being punched in the face
and punching yourself in the face.Copy !req
319. Um...Copy !req
320. Well, and why do you think,
to use your phrase,Copy !req
321. he punched himself in the face?Copy !req
322. Why? Well, because he was mentally,
er, er...Copy !req
323. Because he... he had, er...Copy !req
324. mental issues.Copy !req
325. The e-mail leaked to The Guardian,Copy !req
326. which you'll find on pages
276 to 277 in the evidence,Copy !req
327. one of your advisers
describes Mr Tickel as...Copy !req
328. erm, "fucking Florence Shiteingale".Copy !req
329. Do you not feel that's, er,
a little callous?Copy !req
330. This is, this is
rough and tumble office banter,Copy !req
331. schoolboy showers stuff,
and schoolgirls' showers, er...Copy !req
332. Not that... I mean, not,
not literally, but, er...Copy !req
333. Are you familiar with the phrase
"data smuggling"?Copy !req
334. Data... what?Copy !req
335. Passing on data from a closed system
to an unauthorised source
in exchange for money.Copy !req
336. Oh, yes, I... I...
Well, seems everyone's at it.Copy !req
337. A... are you at it, Mr Mannion?Copy !req
338. No, I'm... I'm... I'm not very good
with technology.Copy !req
339. The Papermate pen is still
cutting-edge technology
as far as I'm concerned.Copy !req
340. Writes upside-down, you know!Copy !req
341. You've told the enquiry
that you didn't feel at all guiltyCopy !req
342. over Mr Tickel's death.Copy !req
343. Well, I... I felt bad.
B... but not guilty.Copy !req
344. I didn't kill him,
I've never killed anyone.Copy !req
345. Noted, but I mean, do you think
you could've made a differenceCopy !req
346. if you had been contactable
that day? Why?Copy !req
347. He wasn't trying to call me.
I... I'm not The Samaritans.Copy !req
348. In fact,Copy !req
349. apparently, tonally,
I have a very depressing voice.Copy !req
350. Mr Mannion,
do you know Mr Alastair Leyton,Copy !req
351. a senior executive at The Times?Copy !req
352. Yes.Copy !req
353. Did you ring Mr Leyton on 25th AprilCopy !req
354. to tell him that Mr Tickel's medical
records had been unlawfully obtainedCopy !req
355. and that this might form the basis
of an explosive news story?Copy !req
356. Did I, er, ring him on that day,
do you mean?Copy !req
357. I, well, I can't remember.Copy !req
358. Well, did you ring him
on any day telling him?Copy !req
359. Look, I came into politics
to make a difference,Copy !req
360. t... to dare, to get things done,Copy !req
361. n... not to leak things,Copy !req
362. or... or spin, or... or blag,Copy !req
363. or... smuggle,Copy !req
364. but to serve, with honest, hard work.Copy !req
365. To do.Copy !req
366. And did you DO something? Did you
contact your friend at The Times?Copy !req
367. No, I... I didn't do that.Copy !req
368. Perhaps we could start
by just giving us an ideaCopy !req
369. of what a... You know,
what a special adviser does?Copy !req
370. Um, er...Copy !req
371. Well, technically, essentially,
we just advise a minister.Copy !req
372. Erm, sort of, media strategies,
political strategies...Copy !req
373. that sort of thing.Copy !req
374. But you're not permanent
members of the Civil Service?Copy !req
375. Er, no, they're like the...
the worker ants.Copy !req
376. We're more like...
Er, well, not the queens.Copy !req
377. That would be, er, Peter Mannion and
to a lesser extent Fergus Williams.Copy !req
378. We're more like the solider ants
that defend the queens.Copy !req
379. Would you like to add anything,
Mr Kenyon?Copy !req
380. Yes, I'm not sure
that the ant analogy helps...Copy !req
381. at all.Copy !req
382. Mr Smith, how would you characterise
your relationship with Mr Kenyon?Copy !req
383. Er, well, I... I... I think
when you get two silverbacks
like Adam and I in a room,Copy !req
384. there's always going to be
a certain amount of chest-beating,
but, erm...Copy !req
385. there's a mutual respect.Copy !req
386. Would you agree, Mr Kenyon?Copy !req
387. Yes.Copy !req
388. What about data smuggling?Copy !req
389. I... is that something
that you were aware of?Copy !req
390. Yeah, I mean of... of course I was
aware of it. I think we all were...Copy !req
391. Absolutely. Yeah.Copy !req
392. But I would say, I would say
it was, er, it was endemic,
it happens every time.Copy !req
393. Endemic?
It's commonplace.Copy !req
394. Hospitals, er,
anywhere with public information.Copy !req
395. GPs, passport offices,
you know, you name it,Copy !req
396. they've all been known
to slip information for money.Copy !req
397. Do any of you know
of specific individualsCopy !req
398. who will offer this...
this information trade?Copy !req
399. No. I don't, no. No.Copy !req
400. Right, so just to clarify,
you say that it's endemic...Copy !req
401. Rife, absolutely.Copy !req
402. But you don't know anyone
who actually does it?Copy !req
403. No. No.Copy !req
404. No, I mean, I could if I needed to.
I...Copy !req
405. have a very wide web of contacts.Copy !req
406. Right, but it's not contacts...Copy !req
407. not contacts that you use? Er, no.Copy !req
408. My position is,
if you leak, you're weak.Copy !req
409. If I'm going to come at you,
I'm going to come at you head on...Copy !req
410. man-on-man.Copy !req
411. That's how I like it...
Er, politically speaking.Copy !req
412. You yourselves were subject to
a leak, weren't you, in The Guardian?Copy !req
413. How did you feel about the e-mail
containing your thoughtsCopy !req
414. about Mr Tickel's death?Copy !req
415. Um, it was, it was shameful
and it was insensitive...Copy !req
416. Absolutely... and we would like
to apologise for that.Copy !req
417. It's, it's dreadful. I agree.Copy !req
418. I mean, their comments were
absolutely unforgivable, mortifying.Copy !req
419. "How many Mr Tickels does it take
to change a lightbulb?"Copy !req
420. "He doesn't have a lightbulb,
he's in a tent."Copy !req
421. Mmm...Copy !req
422. "How do you turn Mr Tickel
into Mr Happy?"Copy !req
423. "Lithium."Copy !req
424. "What's the difference between
Mr Tickel and Captain Oates?"Copy !req
425. "Captain Oates
has a less stupid name."Copy !req
426. And one feel that is particularly
cruel, Ms Messinger,Copy !req
427. given... Mmm.Copy !req
428. Mr Tickel's mental health, erm,
issues.Copy !req
429. "The fucker's a nutbag."Copy !req
430. I'm s... sor... I... I... I...Copy !req
431. It... That is not OK.Copy !req
432. Sorry.Copy !req
433. If I could add a... a... a...
a mea culpa here,Copy !req
434. rather than-than dancing around it.Copy !req
435. Others may choose to attempt to
wriggle off the hook of, er, shame,Copy !req
436. but, um, I cannot.Copy !req
437. I cannot deny that my name
is on those e-mails,Copy !req
438. and yet I do not recognise that man.Copy !req
439. It is me and yet it is another,
and for that I am, um, truly sorry.Copy !req
440. This has been a humbling moment
in my questCopy !req
441. to become the man I know I can be.Copy !req
442. How did you react to the news
of Mr Tickel's death?Copy !req
443. Shock. Absolute shock.
Fell to pieces. Devastation.Copy !req
444. Awful, I mean we couldn't believe
it, it was... tragic...Copy !req
445. Can I just refer you
to Dr Tara Strachan,Copy !req
446. who I believe was in your department
for a meeting at that time,Copy !req
447. and she described
the atmosphere in the officeCopy !req
448. as an atmosphere of elation,Copy !req
449. and you, Mr Smith,
were seen to be punching the air.Copy !req
450. Do you remember doing that?Copy !req
451. I, er... I do not remember to that.Copy !req
452. S... Well,
if you weren't punching the air,
do you remember what you were doing?Copy !req
453. I... I cannot say to that.Copy !req
454. Is it fair to say that information
coming in and out of DoSAC is...Copy !req
455. sticky, for want of a better word?Copy !req
456. Yes. I would certainly agree
with that... to that.Copy !req
457. If I... if I may speak freely
at this point,Copy !req
458. I... I think the reason for a lot of
leaks coming out of DoSAC is thatCopy !req
459. it's very hard to get information
out of the official channels.Copy !req
460. There's a kind of blockage,
is there? Exactly that.Copy !req
461. Um, and an information blockage.
Er, and it... and it...Copy !req
462. and it has to find its way out
through other... routes.Copy !req
463. No, it is actually Terri Coverley,
um...Copy !req
464. who is Head of Press, in name only.Copy !req
465. Good, yes. It's Terri, definitely.
Yep.Copy !req
466. I, Teresa Jessica Coverley,
do sincerely declare and affirmCopy !req
467. that the evidence I shall give will
be the truth,Copy !req
468. the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth.Copy !req
469. Please be seated, Mrs Coverley.
Thank you very much.Copy !req
470. Mr Hodge has some questions.Copy !req
471. Very good to see you this morning,
infamous Terri Coverley.Copy !req
472. Why are you smiling?
I'm not smiling.Copy !req
473. Yeah, or rather I'm smiling,
but it's something I do
when I'm nervous, erm...Copy !req
474. And you have a guilty conscience?
No, no. No, no.Copy !req
475. No, I don't have a guilty conscience
but I do have a guilty face.Copy !req
476. Um, I... I...Copy !req
477. I do blush a lot
and that's a circulation thing,
not a moral thing,Copy !req
478. though I do ACT guilty, um...Copy !req
479. When I was a child, um...Copy !req
480. my brother's hamster was put
into a remote control... aeroplane.Copy !req
481. Tragic consequences, and, um...
unfortunately I was blamed for that,Copy !req
482. though I had nothing to do with it.
It was... it was that I just looked
guilty,Copy !req
483. so I would ask you...
to bear that in mind.Copy !req
484. Can you explain to us how
communications works in government?Copy !req
485. Well, um, I use an analogy.Copy !req
486. Erm...Copy !req
487. I like to think that dealing
with the pressCopy !req
488. is not so much herding cats,
it's more herding sheep,Copy !req
489. and I am the shepherdess,
um... if you like.Copy !req
490. It's, it's... In order to be
an efficient shepherdess,Copy !req
491. one needs a number of things,
I mean...Copy !req
492. Firstly, one needs a whistle,
that's my voice.Copy !req
493. Secondly, one needs a coat,
and that's my coat.Copy !req
494. And thirdly, one needs a dog,Copy !req
495. and that, in my case,
is a lady called Robyn.Copy !req
496. How was your relationship
with Nicola Murray?Copy !req
497. Professionally or personally?Copy !req
498. Professionally. Not good.Copy !req
499. And personally?Copy !req
500. Not good. No, I mean she resented
me, she was jealous of me, I think.Copy !req
501. I mean, a lot of women are.Copy !req
502. It's no secret that... Well,
she's a woman who has issues, er...Copy !req
503. Major issues.Copy !req
504. I felt... If you want me to be
truthful, I felt very sorry for her.Copy !req
505. And your relationship
with Peter Mannion?Copy !req
506. Oh...Copy !req
507. Yeah, very, very, very good.Copy !req
508. Um, yes.
Both professionally and personally.Copy !req
509. Although of course, I... I draw
a... you know, between the two.Copy !req
510. But he's a lovely man to... work
with, to be... to be with,Copy !req
511. to be close to, and...Copy !req
512. Several others have referred
to you as a blockage.Copy !req
513. Perhaps they meant...Copy !req
514. "buffer".Copy !req
515. Because I am a buffer
between their heads...Copy !req
516. and things
that want to hurt their heads.Copy !req
517. Who, in your opinion,Copy !req
518. was responsible for the PFI e-mail
being leaked?Copy !req
519. Well, it's not for me to say,Copy !req
520. and I don't want to be accused
of telling tales before school...Copy !req
521. But I think it was Malcolm Tucker.Copy !req
522. Why do you think that? Erm...Copy !req
523. Feminine intuition.Copy !req
524. Feel it in my water.Copy !req
525. Any reasons beyond your bladder?Copy !req
526. Well, Malcolm can be very, very
tough. I mean, that's no secret.Copy !req
527. Can you give me an example?Copy !req
528. Well, he can send
very forthright texts.Copy !req
529. Would you say he was bullying?Copy !req
530. Well, I can look after myself.Copy !req
531. I mean, I wasn't bullied at school.
I was very popular.Copy !req
532. But if you were somebody w... who...
who had been bullied at school,Copy !req
533. somebody who was weak
or not popular,Copy !req
534. someone like Robyn, for example,
yes, I think Malcolm TuckerCopy !req
535. would be very, very intimidating
indeed, yes...Copy !req
536. You're happy to go on record
saying Malcolm was a bully?Copy !req
537. Um... Malcolm is a bully?Copy !req
538. Mmm...Copy !req
539. We'll need a yes or a no.Copy !req
540. Well, yes, then. Yes.Copy !req
541. Mr Tucker is in next.
I can't imagine he'll be very happy
about that.Copy !req
542. No, he won't. No, he won't.Copy !req
543. Right... Well, I think we can
leave it there, Mrs Coverley.Copy !req
544. Oh, good. Sorry, I mean, thank you.Copy !req
545. Thank you, thank you very much...Copy !req
546. Your Lordship.Copy !req
547. We may need to call you back,Copy !req
548. as I feel there are some issues
that still need clarification.Copy !req
549. Very good, yes, of course.Copy !req
550. Thank you for agreeing to return to
us at such short notice, Mr Tucker.Copy !req
551. It's no problem. You only appear in
front of the Goolding Inquiry twice,Copy !req
552. once on the way up and once on the
way down. Let's hope not.Copy !req
553. Glad to see you again, Mr Tucker.Copy !req
554. Nice to be here.Copy !req
555. Did you watch the evidence
given by Terri Coverley?Copy !req
556. Yes. And I found her quite funny,
without resulting to vulgarity.Copy !req
557. She was very clear
that she regarded you as a bully,Copy !req
558. something you denied
in your first testimony.Copy !req
559. How do you respond to that?Copy !req
560. Um, well, I respond thusly.
That's slander.Copy !req
561. We're trying to clarify
the culture of communicationsCopy !req
562. over which you presided.Copy !req
563. And we have a contradiction
between participants.Copy !req
564. Well, I would say that I'm someone
who lives and breathes
communication,Copy !req
565. so I would lend more weight
to my words,Copy !req
566. rather than to someone who
is just in it for the pension.Copy !req
567. And how is that not slander?Copy !req
568. Well, because that's true.Copy !req
569. She wants a pension more
than Richard Hammond wants
a punch in the face.Copy !req
570. You know, she sat here for an hour.Copy !req
571. You can't have looked at her
and thought this was not a person
who isn't mentally unrobust?Copy !req
572. I'd like to return to
the Batpeople photograph, if I may.Copy !req
573. Why not? Yes, one of my triumphs.Copy !req
574. You said you were cropped
out of the original photo.Copy !req
575. Sadly, yes.Copy !req
576. But they have enlarged.
Can we show the enlargement?Copy !req
577. They've enlarged that photograph
for us.Copy !req
578. Now, could we go to the close-up
of the foldersCopy !req
579. that you're carrying...Copy !req
580. in that photograph, there we are.Copy !req
581. Who enlarged this? Er...Copy !req
582. Was it The Guardian that did this
for you? I believe so...Copy !req
583. I didn't know they were offering
that service. They should do
passport photos.Copy !req
584. Thank you. They'd double
their revenue if they did
passport photos a couple of times.Copy !req
585. This is the folder that you are
carrying in your hand,Copy !req
586. and you see there there's a document
poking up out of the top,Copy !req
587. on the notepad.Copy !req
588. Um, there's a series of numbers
written across the top there.Copy !req
589. Would you be able to tell us
what the first two numbers are?Copy !req
590. I don't... Well, they look like
telephone numbers, I don't know.Copy !req
591. Yes, they are Mr Tickel's
mobile phone numberCopy !req
592. and his ex-wife's landline number.Copy !req
593. Yeah.Copy !req
594. Well, there's nothing untoward
about me having those.Copy !req
595. Well, actually Mrs Tickel's phone
number was ex-directory.Copy !req
596. But let's just leave that
to one side for a moment.Copy !req
597. Very wise.Copy !req
598. The bottom set of numbers.Copy !req
599. Do you have any recollection
as to what they might be?Copy !req
600. No.Copy !req
601. Really? You didn't even look.Copy !req
602. Where are we going with this?Copy !req
603. They are Mr Tickel's NHS numberCopy !req
604. and his National Insurance number.Copy !req
605. Mr Tucker.Copy !req
606. Ffff...Copy !req
607. So why would you have that?Copy !req
608. I don't, I don't recall...Copy !req
609. Sorry, can I just clarify that?Copy !req
610. Are you saying you don't recall
having them,Copy !req
611. or you don't recall
how you obtained them?Copy !req
612. Um...Copy !req
613. I don't... recall having them!Copy !req
614. But it... It appears to me that
you have been rather carelessCopy !req
615. in this instance, Mr Tucker.Copy !req
616. Not at all.Copy !req
617. No? You were photographed
with these papers,Copy !req
618. you flaunted your ruse
to puff yourself up,Copy !req
619. thereby drawing attention
to this photograph,Copy !req
620. this photograph which
is now implicating youCopy !req
621. in a rather troubling way.Copy !req
622. Sorry, I didn't hear
a question there.Copy !req
623. Is there a question here?Copy !req
624. It was an observation, Mr Tucker.Copy !req
625. It's an observation,Copy !req
626. so what are we, is this an inquiry
or an observatory?Copy !req
627. It's an opticians.Copy !req
628. You'd like a question.
Here is a question for you.Copy !req
629. Do you have an explanation
for having these numbers?Copy !req
630. Those numbers are not necessarily
what you say they are.Copy !req
631. Did you request this information?Copy !req
632. Um...Copy !req
633. Because, Mr Tucker, if you didn't
request the information, the onlyCopy !req
634. other way that it could have come to
you would have been if somebody hadCopy !req
635. supplied you with his NHS number,
which would, of course, be illegal.Copy !req
636. Yes.Copy !req
637. Yes. As would obtaining
his health recordsCopy !req
638. and releasing them to the press.Copy !req
639. Which you denied all
knowledge of earlier,Copy !req
640. and you would have
committed a crime.Copy !req
641. Well, I...Copy !req
642. Mr Tucker, a very serious crime.Copy !req
643. Well, as you say, I denied it.Copy !req
644. Yes. And, um...Copy !req
645. Do you repeat that denial here?Copy !req
646. I'm not sure that you know exactly
how this all works.Copy !req
647. Mr Tucker,
are you repeating that denial?Copy !req
648. Yes, I'm...Copy !req
649. I... I am.Copy !req
650. I deny it. I do deny it.Copy !req
651. Thank you.Copy !req
652. Of course you were, until quite
recently, Leader of the Opposition.Copy !req
653. You led your party for...Copy !req
654. For two years, yes.Copy !req
655. For 22 months and nine days.Copy !req
656. Yes, I was rounding up.Copy !req
657. How does it feel to lose that
position so abruptly,Copy !req
658. and so publicly?Copy !req
659. Um, horrible. It feels horrible.Copy !req
660. I think I felt as I would feelCopy !req
661. if I were being strangled to
death by somebody I trusted.Copy !req
662. Yes, er, the press have been
unkind to you overCopy !req
663. much of your recent career,
haven't they?Copy !req
664. Well, when you're
a high-profile politician,Copy !req
665. you expect to be in the public gaze.
Um, I would say that there's a...Copy !req
666. there's a certain level of extra
scrutiny that is affordedCopy !req
667. to women in the public gaze,
I'm sure you would agree.Copy !req
668. Well, you were, um, followed around
for six monthsCopy !req
669. by a man dressed as a pork chop.Copy !req
670. Is that the particular
kind of scrutiny that,Copy !req
671. that you're saying is reserved
for women?Copy !req
672. No, that was just reserved for me.Copy !req
673. If we, um,
just could turn to tab 16.Copy !req
674. We have some articles,
there's quite a few, actually.Copy !req
675. On top of the second page here there
is an exploded view of your face.Copy !req
676. Yes, well they have, um...Copy !req
677. They have magnified
a picture of my top lip,Copy !req
678. er, in the hope of finding
a moustache, which I do not have,Copy !req
679. I never have had a moustache, so...Copy !req
680. If we, er, yes, again, if we turn
to the fourth page of this tab.Copy !req
681. "Frumpy, grumpy and dangerous
to know."Copy !req
682. "How Nicola Murray went from
gold to lead in six months."Copy !req
683. I mean, this is typical of, er,
of many of the piecesCopy !req
684. printed about you at the time,
about a year ago, wasn't it?Copy !req
685. Yes, it was.Copy !req
686. Over 35 major articles.Copy !req
687. Yes. Yeah.Copy !req
688. I mean, I suppose the point I'd make
is that we're sitting hereCopy !req
689. in our ivory, um, inquiry.Copy !req
690. And out there, in the real world,
there is actual news happening.Copy !req
691. You know, we've got the chief whip's
office, you know,Copy !req
692. during the course of this morning has
come under very particular scrutiny,Copy !req
693. there are funding issues, there's
the justice minister crisisCopy !req
694. that's suddenly sort of spiralling
out of control.Copy !req
695. I just, I don't quite know why we're,
we're focussing on my moustache.Copy !req
696. Which I don't have.Copy !req
697. I'm afraid both of those very
recent developmentsCopy !req
698. may well be the subject of police
investigations,Copy !req
699. so cannot be discussed in this room.Copy !req
700. Which shows they've done the job.Copy !req
701. Done the job?Copy !req
702. Well, it just seems to me that
somebody is engineeringCopy !req
703. this flurry of press reports in order
to divert attention from the, er,Copy !req
704. shall we say dramatic revelations
of this inquiry. I mean, it just,Copy !req
705. it just seems like there's another
story every five minutes.Copy !req
706. And who would that somebody be?Copy !req
707. Well, um. I...
Maybe we should ask Taggart!Copy !req
708. Would you care to make a specific
allegation against someone?Copy !req
709. Er, no I wouldn't care to, no.Copy !req
710. On a completely unrelated matter,Copy !req
711. Malcolm Tucker was pleased to see
you go, is that a fair statement?Copy !req
712. Yes, I think that would be
fair to say. Yes.Copy !req
713. Mmm.Copy !req
714. Did he engineer the leaking of the
e-mail that led to your resignation?Copy !req
715. Er, well, I don't have
any solid evidenceCopy !req
716. that he did that. Um...Copy !req
717. Sounds like somebody else's career
has just gone into the shredder!Copy !req
718. I have asked for all mobile phones
to be turned completely off, please.Copy !req
719. I'm sorry, Mrs Murray.Copy !req
720. Yes, it is...Copy !req
721. Mr Hodge.Copy !req
722. Mrs Murray, we spoke earlier about
your husband's interestsCopy !req
723. in the key worker, er,
housing sell off.Copy !req
724. Yes, we spoke about his lack
of interest in fact, to be precise.Copy !req
725. Yes, well, I've no wish to retread
that particular ground.Copy !req
726. No, I've no wish to either,Copy !req
727. I mean, I really do want to make that
quite clear.Copy !req
728. I'm finding this constant reiteration
of my husband's, er,Copy !req
729. innocent position to be wearing
in the extreme.Copy !req
730. Mrs Murray, may I remind youCopy !req
731. that you did ask for this inquiry
to be set up.Copy !req
732. I didn't not want an inquiry.Copy !req
733. Well, presumably there was something
that you feel that neededCopy !req
734. to be said, needed to be asked,
about, er, about PFI, about leaking.Copy !req
735. I think, er, that it's a good idea
to have an inquiryCopy !req
736. every now and then.
I just think it, um...Copy !req
737. Livens things up a bit.Copy !req
738. On that subject, was it, um,Copy !req
739. Mr Tucker who persuaded you call for
an inquiry into Mr Tickel's death?Copy !req
740. Er, I called for the inquiryCopy !req
741. after Mr Tucker had spoken to me.Copy !req
742. Is there a better party
happening elsewhere?Copy !req
743. I'm sorry Mrs Murray, in view of
events developingCopy !req
744. outside of this room, some of
which may be subject to policeCopy !req
745. investigations, and consequently
to re-examine the parametersCopy !req
746. of this inquiry, I think we'll leave
it there for the moment, Mrs Murray.Copy !req
747. Well, yeah, I have actually prepared
a very brief statement,Copy !req
748. which I think will
clarify my position on...Copy !req
749. I'm afraid we don't have
the time for that.Copy !req
750. It is very brief. Um, I think it was
Gandhi who once saidCopy !req
751. that an honest man is a gift
from God and a gift to...Copy !req
752. I'm sure a written submission will
suffice. Thank you so much.Copy !req
753. I'm now going to adjourn
for a short period.Copy !req
754. Fuck's sake.Copy !req
755. Please be seated. Thank you
for your attendance, Ms Murdoch.Copy !req
756. Um, Mr Weir has some questions.Copy !req
757. If I can turn to you, Ms Murdoch.Copy !req
758. How would you describe your
relationship with Ms Coverley?Copy !req
759. Do you, do you get on well with her,
with her?Copy !req
760. No.Copy !req
761. Can you, um... Can you expand
on that for us a little?Copy !req
762. No.Copy !req
763. I do not...Copy !req
764. get on with her.Copy !req
765. Um, we do not get on.Copy !req
766. I think we do!Copy !req
767. There may have been times when we do
get on, and have got on.Copy !req
768. Um, I do not recall to that.
Thank you.Copy !req
769. Ms Coverley, you compared Ms Murdoch
to a dog and described her as weakCopy !req
770. in our last interview.Copy !req
771. Yeah, er, I like, I like weak dogs,
I have, I have one myself, so...Copy !req
772. Would you say that there is a
culture of bullying within DoSAC?Copy !req
773. If I could ask you first,
Ms Murdoch.Copy !req
774. Um, I'd say there was a culture
of bullying ME at DoSAC.Copy !req
775. You've experienced bullying there?Copy !req
776. Well, you know, I, I see them
all standing around, you know,Copy !req
777. chattering like squirrels
on Red Bull.Copy !req
778. When I ask them
what they're talking about,Copy !req
779. they usually bark a tea order at me.Copy !req
780. Or, you know, or call me, er,
the blonde bombshite,Copy !req
781. if I can use that word,
or some other horrible sweary thing.Copy !req
782. That's the form that
the bullying takes?Copy !req
783. And if you refuse to make
your boss's tea, you know,Copy !req
784. they, they call you
Mariella Shitstrop.Copy !req
785. Or Flouncy Sinatra, which,
which doesn't even really work!Copy !req
786. And can I ask you both about
the leaked Guardian e-mail?Copy !req
787. Oh, yes!Copy !req
788. Ask anything you like, I don't
know anything about that bit.Copy !req
789. Yeah, thank you, Robyn. The e-mail
was leaked from my computer,Copy !req
790. which is proof that it was not me
that sent it, um,Copy !req
791. people do not leak from their own
computers, that's not how it's done.Copy !req
792. How is it done then, Mrs Coverley?Copy !req
793. I don't know.Copy !req
794. Well, you've just said
something that impliesCopy !req
795. you do know how it's done.Copy !req
796. I don't know.Copy !req
797. How do you know, then,Copy !req
798. that leaking is done from other
people's computers?Copy !req
799. Do you learn this from
a leakers' charter?Copy !req
800. Is it perhaps put up on
a staff notice board?Copy !req
801. Mr Glenn Cullen informed me.Copy !req
802. He, er, he told me that if leaking is
done, it's done from other computers.Copy !req
803. Glenn Cullen.Copy !req
804. Yeah, I'm not saying anything about
Glenn Cullen himself, you understand.Copy !req
805. You know, he is a very,
very trustworthy individual.Copy !req
806. Borderline priest.Copy !req
807. No, Terri's right.
I heard it was Glenn who did it.Copy !req
808. No, I did not say that
Glenn Cullen did it.Copy !req
809. No, I, when I, I meant that Glenn
told you, not that,Copy !req
810. that I meant that Glenn did it.Copy !req
811. To return for the moment to
the subject of bullying,Copy !req
812. where did Malcolm Tucker
stand in all this?Copy !req
813. The department's a horrible place,
and when Malcolm was thereCopy !req
814. he was part of that, you know,
he was the big bully.Copy !req
815. The other people are horribly rude,Copy !req
816. and the rudeness is unnecessary,
but, you know,Copy !req
817. I don't get any sense that they've,
they've got a big plan or anything.Copy !req
818. You know, to be honest,Copy !req
819. I think they're just trying to get
through the day withoutCopy !req
820. cocking up, and drink as many hot
drinks as possible in the process.Copy !req
821. Moving on, do you know
anything about Malcolm Tucker'sCopy !req
822. involvement with data smuggling?
Specifically private NHS details.Copy !req
823. I think...Copy !req
824. Er, no, no, I'm afraid we don't.Copy !req
825. I don't. Um, would it be
possible for me to revise my,Copy !req
826. the opinion that I gave of Malcolm
Tucker on my first appearance?Copy !req
827. Your Lordship? Yes?Copy !req
828. You may revise it, but of course
it will stay on the record.Copy !req
829. OK, um, well, I just wanted to make
it absolutely clear thatCopy !req
830. having thought about it in the grand
scheme of things,Copy !req
831. I don't think it is fair to say that
Malcolm is a bully or he's brutal.Copy !req
832. Certainly not when you compare him
to some of his fellow countrymen.Copy !req
833. Well, I think Malcolm's really
difficult, and you do too, Terri.Copy !req
834. Don't know why you're being so coy.
It's not like he'll do a... you know.Copy !req
835. A you know? What's, what's this?Copy !req
836. You know,
that story about you in the papers.Copy !req
837. A story involving me
in the newspapers is not the subjectCopy !req
838. of this investigation, so we are not
going to discuss it any further.Copy !req
839. Now, er, Miss Murdoch, what
about the use of data smuggling,Copy !req
840. er, within government?Copy !req
841. Do you know anything about that?Copy !req
842. Yeah, loads. Um, there are dodgy
people in the NHSCopy !req
843. and the benefits office who talk
to investigators all the time.Copy !req
844. Do you have experience of this?
Yeah, I've been on the receiving
end of it.Copy !req
845. I didn't know that the
notes your GP makes are availableCopy !req
846. to your local pharmacist.Copy !req
847. I went to see my mother's
doctor about her alcohol problem,Copy !req
848. which is a private family matter.Copy !req
849. Next thing I knew,
it's all round the village.Copy !req
850. Yes.
And now it's all round the world.Copy !req
851. Exactly.Copy !req
852. She's saying that that's your fault.Copy !req
853. How?Copy !req
854. Oh.Copy !req
855. As you can see,
Baroness Sureka is not with usCopy !req
856. and will remain absent while she
deals with the personal allegationsCopy !req
857. published in the Sunday Times.Copy !req
858. This in no way invalidates
the inquiry, nor does it compromiseCopy !req
859. the integrity of any questioning
conducted by Baroness Sureka.Copy !req
860. Mr Hodge.Copy !req
861. Thank you.Copy !req
862. Er, Oliver Reeder, you were a senior
advisor to Nicola MurrayCopy !req
863. during her time as
Secretary of State at DoSAC.Copy !req
864. Yup. I was, er, the senior advisor.Copy !req
865. Good, and when Ms Murray became
Leader of the Opposition,Copy !req
866. er, you were also one of her
senior advisors?Copy !req
867. Yeah. Again, the,
the senior advisor, yeah.Copy !req
868. I see, and now you're a senior
advisor to Mr Dan Miller?Copy !req
869. Yeah, yeah, slight, a slightly less
pivotal role with, with Dan,Copy !req
870. but part of a, kind of,
larger pivot, really.Copy !req
871. Mm-hmm, thank you.
Er, well, Mr Reeder,Copy !req
872. they say that in politics
knowledge is power.Copy !req
873. True, yes, although that doesn't
mean that Carol VordermanCopy !req
874. should be Prime Minister!Copy !req
875. Or should I say Stephen Fry,
cos Carol's just maths, but yeah.Copy !req
876. You've known Malcolm Tucker for,
for some years now.Copy !req
877. Yes, I have, yes.Copy !req
878. He seems like a,
an intimidating person. Is he?Copy !req
879. Er, well, I mean not, not to me.Copy !req
880. No?Copy !req
881. No, er, no, er, no,
although he doesn't,Copy !req
882. he doesn't suffer fools gladly,
I think that's fair to say,Copy !req
883. or, um, or clever people,
to be honest.Copy !req
884. So he's never, er, bullied you?Copy !req
885. Well, do I, do I look like I could
be bullied by Mr Tucker?Copy !req
886. I could... No.Copy !req
887. Could you turn to tab nine?Copy !req
888. You'll find it in your,
in your folder there, yeah.Copy !req
889. Um, we have some, er,
some quotes here.Copy !req
890. Some evidence from several
civil servants who, who allCopy !req
891. independently suggest that Mr Tucker,
in fact, regularly did bully you.Copy !req
892. "Mr Tucker threatened to remove
Mr Reeder's appendix,Copy !req
893. "throw away Mr Reeder,Copy !req
894. "and appoint the useless flap
of colon as special advisor."Copy !req
895. Yeah.Copy !req
896. Um... Well that's, yes!Copy !req
897. That's banter.Copy !req
898. "Mr Tucker told Mr Reeder that he
would have him smothered,Copy !req
899. "eviscerated, stuff, fitted with
wheels, and donated to an orphanage."Copy !req
900. That's, what... cos this
is out of context,Copy !req
901. what you don't have there
is my reply.Copy !req
902. And so, you know, it's just him.
And what was that?Copy !req
903. Er, well, I don't remember
what it was on this occasion.Copy !req
904. It would have been, but it would
have been a, you know, kkk!Copy !req
905. It would have been a zinger, because
I gave as good as I got,Copy !req
906. so it's not bullying.
Very good.Copy !req
907. Is there anything about the leaking
of the so-called PFI e-mailCopy !req
908. that you feel that this inquiry
should, should be aware of?Copy !req
909. Oh, God, um...Copy !req
910. I mean, um...Copy !req
911. I mean, to be brutally frank,Copy !req
912. I'm, I'm struggling to
remember here, but...Copy !req
913. Well, please take your time.
There's no hurry.Copy !req
914. Of course, yeah, I mean I think,
you know, what,Copy !req
915. what you have to remember,
in this instance, is that on the dayCopy !req
916. that all of that stuff took place,
um, I was in hospital.Copy !req
917. So I'm, you know, I'm cut off,
essentially, I didn't have a phone.Copy !req
918. But I mean, I hadn't mentioned, er,
the use of a phone, I mean...Copy !req
919. Yes, no, I know,
I'm simply saying I was...Copy !req
920. You weren't working
remotely from the hospital?Copy !req
921. No, no, not remotely, um, er, in,
in either sense. No. No.Copy !req
922. Did you have any visitors?Copy !req
923. Erm...Copy !req
924. You must be able to remember that.Copy !req
925. Well, if you're not completely sure,
Mr Reeder,Copy !req
926. you can always check with
the visitors' records.Copy !req
927. Well, don't, let's not do that, um,
let's not do that for the moment,Copy !req
928. let me just, if, just give,
bear with me, er, but I did, yes,Copy !req
929. I think I was visited
by colleagues from the office.Copy !req
930. Can you give us a name?Copy !req
931. Er, Malcolm is, um,
is his name, Malcolm's name,Copy !req
932. Malcolm, Malcolm Tucker visited me.Copy !req
933. I'm assuming this wasn't a social
visit, what did, er,Copy !req
934. what did he,
what did Mr Tucker want?Copy !req
935. He wanted to, he, I mean,
what, what, OK.Copy !req
936. I mean, I'm really, I'm,
I'm anxious, I'm keen,Copy !req
937. I'm trying my best to answer your,
er, questions truthfully...Copy !req
938. I should remind you
you are under oath, Mr...Copy !req
939. Absolutely, yes, I'm under oath,
so this is... but, but, er...Copy !req
940. What you have to understand is,Copy !req
941. everybody has something on
everyone here, right?Copy !req
942. So in this circumstance, if you
inadvertently say or do something,Copy !req
943. um, er, you know, you shouldn't,
then that's it, that's it,Copy !req
944. that's it, it's done,
your career is done.Copy !req
945. You know, look what happened to
a member of this inquiry, right?Copy !req
946. So you have to...Copy !req
947. This is not the place to discuss
those allegations. No, of course.Copy !req
948. Mr Reeder, if you feel... Yeah.Copy !req
949. You feel under pressure, am I right?
Is that because of something
that you know?Copy !req
950. Yes, no, er, general pressure,
I feel under a, a sort of,Copy !req
951. just that, it's the jitters of work.Copy !req
952. Who leaked the e-mail, Mr Reeder?Copy !req
953. Glenn, er, Cullen.Copy !req
954. Er, he was in DoSAC at the time,Copy !req
955. and he, er, still had access to
the e-mail, and he hated his life,Copy !req
956. he, he, you know, he hated Nicola
Murray because she'd previouslyCopy !req
957. destroyed his chances
of standing as an MP.Copy !req
958. Most helpful,
Glenn Cullen is our next witness.Copy !req
959. Most interesting, thank you.Copy !req
960. Oh, well, OK.
That's fine, thank you.Copy !req
961. Mr Cullen.Copy !req
962. I wonder if I could start by taking
you back to that time two years ago.Copy !req
963. You left Nicola Murray, and you went
to work for Fergus Williams.Copy !req
964. Yes, yes I did, that's right.Copy !req
965. And you found yourself in a
coalition with the very partyCopy !req
966. that you opposed. That must have
been extremely distressing.Copy !req
967. Er, no, not at all, as a matter
of fact. I was very invigoratedCopy !req
968. by the idea of, er, trying to forge
a new way in politics.Copy !req
969. Mm-hmm, so all was rosy?Copy !req
970. Well, um,
can't think of any negatives.Copy !req
971. No friction?Copy !req
972. No, the only F word was fun.Copy !req
973. Thank you, Mr Cullen.Copy !req
974. Mr Cullen.Copy !req
975. Would you say there's a culture
of leaking in the government?Copy !req
976. Yes, I would. Yes, leaking and lying.Copy !req
977. To your knowledge have any of your
colleagues lied to this inquiry?Copy !req
978. Well, I mean, that's a bit like
asking, you know, um,Copy !req
979. does a cow drink milk?Copy !req
980. Does it?Copy !req
981. Probably.Copy !req
982. But what I meant to say was, er, yes,Copy !req
983. um, my colleagues lie constantly,
it's a professional necessity.Copy !req
984. Have you ever leaked, Mr Cullen?Copy !req
985. First of all, may I just say, er,
welcome back, Baroness Sureka,Copy !req
986. big hugs, I'm sure
I speak to everyone hereCopy !req
987. when I say that we're all thinking of
you, er, and, er, you have been...Copy !req
988. I'd rather you, um, swapped the
ham-fisted flattery for actuallyCopy !req
989. answering my question,
which was have you ever leaked?Copy !req
990. Right. No, it's a very simple
questionCopy !req
991. and it's got a very simple answer.
No, I haven't.Copy !req
992. Um, you'll be aware of Ollie
Reeder's testimony to the inquiryCopy !req
993. where he said that you were, in
fact, responsible for the PFI leak.Copy !req
994. Yes, I am.Copy !req
995. But, no, which means to say
I am aware of, of that.Copy !req
996. But, gosh, you've got to be careful
what you say here, haven't you?Copy !req
997. You certainly do, Mr Cullen.
Let's hope we're up to it.Copy !req
998. Is there any truth at all
in Mr Reeder's accusations?Copy !req
999. Absolutely none whatsoever.Copy !req
1000. He's talking out of his...
out of his other cheeks, if you...Copy !req
1001. Why would Oliver Reeder
suggest that you were behindCopy !req
1002. the PFI e-mail leak, then?Copy !req
1003. I've absolutely no idea.Copy !req
1004. It's very difficult for me
to get into the mindset of somebodyCopy !req
1005. so entirely self-serving and,
um, spiritually ugly.Copy !req
1006. I mean, anyone who's been unfortunate
enough to have come acrossCopy !req
1007. Ollie Reeder will know that
he is a genuinely...Copy !req
1008. atrocious person.Copy !req
1009. Mmm. Do you believe Mr Reeder was
trying to cover himself
in that case?Copy !req
1010. Well, I do believe he has the
emotional tools for the task.
Yes, certainly.Copy !req
1011. Do you believe that Ollie Reeder
was behind the leak?Copy !req
1012. No.Copy !req
1013. You see...Copy !req
1014. A leak of this magnitude
would requireCopy !req
1015. one essential item
that Ollie lacks.Copy !req
1016. And that's a spine.Copy !req
1017. He is a man without a spine,
he is a man worm,Copy !req
1018. he's a writhing mollusc without
any strategies or convictions,Copy !req
1019. he simply slimes his way into
the nearest crack every night,Copy !req
1020. and I would like to put on record
that I apologise to this committeeCopy !req
1021. for being the man who brought him
into the world of politics.Copy !req
1022. The whole truth,
and nothing but the truth.Copy !req
1023. Thank you for returning to this
inquiry, Mr Tucker.Copy !req
1024. That's no problem, no.Copy !req
1025. I had a hair appointment, but I
think they can fit me in next week.Copy !req
1026. There's no need to be so flippant
about this inquiry.Copy !req
1027. Well, it's just, you know, you keep
asking me the same questions,Copy !req
1028. I can't really help it
if you don't like the answers.Copy !req
1029. Maybe you could try a little
harder in answering.Copy !req
1030. I'm amazed you've stayed at the top
of politics for, for quiteCopy !req
1031. so long with such apparently
poor powers of recall.Copy !req
1032. Maybe it's my age.
It's good to see you back.Copy !req
1033. Thank you. Nice to see you too.Copy !req
1034. At your last appearance
at this inquiry,Copy !req
1035. you admitted that you have leaked.
Is that correct?Copy !req
1036. Well, everyone leaks. Many, many
people who appeared here inCopy !req
1037. front of you, er, have leaked, but
they've just lied about it to you.Copy !req
1038. Mr Tucker,
that's an incredibly serious charge,Copy !req
1039. do you have any evidence to
substantiate that allegation?Copy !req
1040. Well, you will forgive me
if I don't do your job for you.Copy !req
1041. Because if you can't spot
a sprayed-on haloCopy !req
1042. while someone doing a, you know,
"What me, guv?" panto act,Copy !req
1043. maybe you shouldn't be sitting
behind that desk.Copy !req
1044. At your last appearance
we asked you very specificallyCopy !req
1045. how you came by Mr Tickel's NHS
number and National Insurance number,Copy !req
1046. and you could not recall.Copy !req
1047. Have you had any more time
to think about it?Copy !req
1048. Yes, I have.Copy !req
1049. And could you tell us any more?Copy !req
1050. No.Copy !req
1051. You've got no recollection at all?Copy !req
1052. No. By the way, you should not be
talking to me about this,Copy !req
1053. because you've been
a victim of a leaking,Copy !req
1054. a very unfortunate victim,
and I have every sympathy with you.Copy !req
1055. How can you possibly give me
a fair hearing when you've beenCopy !req
1056. a victim of the very crime that
you are accusing me of?Copy !req
1057. You are prejudiced, this entire
inquiry, therefore, is prejudiced.Copy !req
1058. I can see what you're doing.Copy !req
1059. It smacks of desperation
and it will not work.Copy !req
1060. Does it?Copy !req
1061. No, listen, there you go again,
see that's it,Copy !req
1062. you're just rushing to judgment.Copy !req
1063. You are totally discredited here.Copy !req
1064. I am obliged to remind you,
Mr Tucker, that you are under oath,Copy !req
1065. and if you lie to this inquiry, it
may result in a criminal prosecution.Copy !req
1066. Sorry, please don't insult my
intelligence by acting as ifCopy !req
1067. you're all so naive that you don't
know how this all works.Copy !req
1068. Everybody in this room has bent
the rules to get in here,Copy !req
1069. because you don't get in this room
without bending the rules,Copy !req
1070. you don't get to where you are
without bending the rules,Copy !req
1071. that's the way it is.Copy !req
1072. Mr Tucker, I'm going to give you
one more chanceCopy !req
1073. to respond to my question.Copy !req
1074. How did you acquire
Mr Tickel's NHS numberCopy !req
1075. and his National Insurance number?Copy !req
1076. Who said I acquired it?Copy !req
1077. A photograph.Copy !req
1078. No, no, the photograph
shows me holding it.Copy !req
1079. Doesn't show me acquiring it.Copy !req
1080. You'd have to ask the person
that gave me the folder.Copy !req
1081. Who gave you the folder?
I don't remember.Copy !req
1082. You are being deliberately evasive.Copy !req
1083. I...Copy !req
1084. I don't...Copy !req
1085. recall, you know. I don't,
I don't know, I can't remember.Copy !req
1086. Very well.Copy !req
1087. Regardless of how you came by
Mr Tickel's mental health records,Copy !req
1088. did you then leak them to the media?Copy !req
1089. I can't recall.Copy !req
1090. So that's not a denial?Copy !req
1091. Je ne remember rien.Copy !req
1092. Well, if you can't recall,Copy !req
1093. it leaves open the possibility
that you did leak them.Copy !req
1094. Let me tell you this.Copy !req
1095. The whole planet's leaking,
everybody is leaking.Copy !req
1096. You know, everyone's spewing
out their guts onto the internet.Copy !req
1097. Putting up their,
their relationship status,Copy !req
1098. and, er, photos of their vajazzles.Copy !req
1099. We've come to a point where there
are people, millions of people,Copy !req
1100. who are quite happy to trade a
kidney in order to go on television.Copy !req
1101. And to show people their knickers,
to show people their skid marks,Copy !req
1102. and then complain to OK Magazine
about a breach of privacy.Copy !req
1103. The exchange of private information,
that is what drives our economy.Copy !req
1104. But you come after meCopy !req
1105. because you can't, you can't arrest
a land mass, can you?Copy !req
1106. You can't, you can't cuff a country.Copy !req
1107. You might as well just go and go,Copy !req
1108. you can't lynch that guy there,
can you?Copy !req
1109. But you decide that you can sit
there, you can judge,Copy !req
1110. and you can ogle me
like a Page Three girl.Copy !req
1111. You don't like it?
Well, you don't like yourself.Copy !req
1112. You don't like your species,
and you know what?Copy !req
1113. Neither do I, but how dare you come
and lay this at my door.Copy !req
1114. How dare you blame me for this.Copy !req
1115. Which is the result
of a political class...Copy !req
1116. which has given up on morality.Copy !req
1117. And simply pursues popularity
at all costs.Copy !req
1118. I am you, and you are me.Copy !req
1119. Are you finished?Copy !req
1120. Ah, I'm finished anyway.Copy !req
1121. You didn't finish me.Copy !req
1122. Would you like to stand down?Copy !req
1123. Thanks.Copy !req
1124. Are you not the human router?Copy !req
1125. The human router, yes.Copy !req
1126. But I think you'll find that leaking
is very much a 3G business.Copy !req
1127. You know? It's, it's off
the house wi-fi grid.Copy !req
1128. I assume you're referring to
the leaking of Mr Tickel'sCopy !req
1129. medical records, and I would like to
say, I find that disgraceful,Copy !req
1130. and I would like that on the record.Copy !req
1131. Everything we say here
is on the record,Copy !req
1132. Mr Williams, that's how this works.Copy !req
1133. Well, that's great.Copy !req
1134. When I was a journalist, OK,
when I, when I was a journalist
at the Mail, I used leaks.Copy !req
1135. Now I'm in government,
I do not leak.Copy !req
1136. Wayne Rooney, for example,
he used to score goals for Everton.Copy !req
1137. And now he plays for,
for Manchester United.Copy !req
1138. Now, nobody expects him to score
goals for Everton any more, do they?Copy !req
1139. I mean, if he did that,
United would give him the sack.Copy !req
1140. Although you did previously
describe yourself as a shepherdess.Copy !req
1141. Now, did you have something
to add to that?Copy !req
1142. I just, shepherdess, did she say,
did you say shepherdess?Copy !req
1143. Yes, I was, I was giving an analogy,
I mean to be, to be fair,Copy !req
1144. Perhaps it would be more
accurate to describe myselfCopy !req
1145. as a sheep in shepherdess's
clothing.Copy !req
1146. Do you follow?Copy !req
1147. Err, no, not, not, er, completely.
No.Copy !req
1148. The shepherdess analogy
is flawed anyway.Copy !req
1149. Malcolm Tucker is very much
a political Flintstone. You know.Copy !req
1150. He carved his press
releases into stone tablets.Copy !req
1151. He uses a bird's beak to play
his Happy Monday vinyls. He leaks.Copy !req