Penn & Teller: Bull! 2x10

1. Hi, I'm Penn.

2. Hi. Hi. Hi.

3. I've been sober for 49 years.

4. I've never had a drink of alcohol in my life

5. ever,

6. ever.

7. And that's not bullshit.

8. 12 step programs.

9. That's bullshit.

10. I find this.

11. Hard.

12. And. The

13. boo boo boo boo.

14. You. Back.

15. Do you.

16. Before

17. we get into this show, Taylor and I wanted to mention that we.

18. We don't know dick about addictions like everyone else.

19. We don't even really know what the word addiction really means.

20. We're both stone sober atheist entertainers.

21. We're not resisting alcohol or drugs.

22. We don't even think about it.

23. We feel no temptation.

24. If you're fucking up your life with drugs or alcohol or religion,

25. we have no idea what you're going through.

26. We made a choice a long time ago not to go down that road,

27. but we have a job to do here.

28. So we got a whole gang of cleaned up drugs and dopers

29. to teach us how 12 step programs are supposed to work.

30. Here in America, life is great.

31. We get just about everything we want.

32. And for millions, everything includes getting shitfaced.

33. It's estimated that 14 million Americans, 1

34. in 13 adults, abuse alcohol or are alcoholics.

35. Whatever the fuck that means.

36. God grant me the story with all.

37. These self-proclaimed addicts.

38. 12 step programs are booming.

39. There are over 300 different types of 12 step programs operating in America alone.

40. For those addicted to alcohol, cocaine and prescription drugs,

41. gambling, sex, messiness, profanity, cross-dressing, you name it.

42. For any behavior, good or bad, there's a 12 step program out there

43. to put you on that road to recovery.

44. 12 step sounds like technology, right?

45. It has numbers two, step one, step two, and so on.

46. Fix your flat tire or cured your rash.

47. But 12 steps isn't technology.

48. It's religion in religious cults who take people with bad problems

49. and teach them to define themselves as sinners.

50. Disease to their very core.

51. You teach them to be ashamed, weak, helpless.

52. Then you offer them one way out by obeying infallible authority like a god.

53. I had to read you the 12 steps that you see.

54. Whether you call 12 steps, technology or cult

55. tell is going to illustrate them with a little performance art.

56. Remember, we aren't the ones that made these up.

57. I'm reading.

58. Step one.

59. Admit you were powerless over alcohol and that your life has become unmanageable.

60. Two. Come to believe that a power

61. greater than yourself could restore you to sanity.

62. Three.

63. Make a decision to turn over your life to the care of God as you understand him.

64. Four.

65. Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself.

66. Five.

67. Admit to God, to yourself, to another human

68. being, the exact nature of your wrongs. Six.

69. Be entirely ready to have God remove all these defects in character.

70. Seven.

71. Humbly ask God to remove your shortcomings.

72. Eight.

73. Make a list of all persons

74. you have harmed and become willing to make amends to them all.

75. Nine.

76. Make direct amends to such people whenever possible,

77. except when to do so would injure them or others.

78. Tap continue

79. to take personal story when wronged properly admit it.

80. 11. Seek through prayer and meditation to improve

81. your conscious contact with God as you understand him.

82. Praying only for knowledge of his will for you and the power to carry this out.

83. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, carry

84. this message to alcoholics and practice these principles in all

85. our affairs.

86. AA has no respect whatsoever for 12 steppers.

87. Don't take control.

88. Pity yourself.

89. Punish yourself. Shrug off all responsibility.

90. Then trade in the almighty bottle for the Almighty God.

91. What do you think?

92. Technology or cult?

93. Alcoholism actually is a disease.

94. It's a disease.

95. So diseases happen to everybody around the world.

96. We've all heard this claim. It's a disease.

97. It's not my responsibility.

98. I'm helpless. I'm the victim.

99. I was born this way, or I caught it from a toilet seat.

100. Oh, I just totally a disease, you know?

101. But then we found this guy.

102. Addiction is a choice.

103. It's not a disease.

104. I am Doctor Jeffrey Shaler, a psychologist

105. and assistant professor at American University.

106. Addiction is a behavior.

107. And because it's a behavior, it's always voluntary.

108. There's no such thing as an involuntary behavior.

109. But that's one opinion. Here's another.

110. My name's Katie.

111. I'm a sober, recovering alcoholic in AA.

112. It's a four full disease, a mental, spiritual, emotional,

113. and physical disease.

114. Hey, if you're going to throw that word disease

115. around, you'd better have the science to back it up.

116. In the scientific community, we hold a particular view

117. on what constitutes a disease and addiction and alcoholism

118. do not meet those criteria for disease classification.

119. Drinking alcohol.

120. Putting the alcohol into one's body is an activity

121. or behavior that is an expression of choice and preference.

122. But having a real disease

123. like cancer is not something that you can control with willpower.

124. That's a big difference there.

125. If this is a disease which everyone keeps saying that it is,

126. then why do we treat it as such?

127. Truly treated as such?

128. Deedee stout, substance abuse professional, recovered

129. alcoholic and drug addict San Francisco, California.

130. If someone had diabetes, we would not suggest there's only one way to treat it.

131. That would be insane.

132. Hey, if it's not a disease that one of the main foundations of AA

133. and 12 step programs is not just wrong, it's confusing.

134. To get to the heart of addiction, we chase down this distinguished

135. looking Harvard psychologist

136. who wrote a book called, appropriately, The Heart of Addiction.

137. Addiction is a psychological problem.

138. First of all, it's not, due to your brain chemistry.

139. It's not due to your genes.

140. There have been 40 years of genetic research

141. which show that there is no gene for alcoholism.

142. Doctor Lance Otis, Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School.

143. AA is not a professional organization.

144. and as a consequence, they don't study themselves.

145. They don't modify the, treatment according to the results.

146. they don't do any of the things that we expect

147. and that we, we should expect from a professional,

148. treatment for an important problem.

149. Okay, we've got Harvard eggheads on our side.

150. But what about the law?

151. In 1988, some veterans applying for education benefits

152. after a deadline expired claimed that their disease of alcoholism

153. had made them neglect to file on time.

154. I guess fuck up is a disease, too.

155. They were turned down and appealed all the way to the Supreme Court.

156. The Supreme Court, in its majority opinion, said that there was

157. substantial evidence to support the idea that alcoholism was not a disease.

158. God damn it!

159. Ask someone with cancer robbing them to pieces.

160. If alcoholism is a disease,

161. they still have the strength they'll smack the crap out of you.

162. You choose to drink.

163. Did anyone choose leukemia?

164. That's a real disease.

165. And why?

166. If alcoholism is a disease,

167. do we treated by apologizing or giving in to a higher power?

168. If eczema is your disease, you don't call your ex-girlfriends

169. and tell them you were a dick.

170. You stop scratching and moisturize.

171. Stop.

172. Addiction is a disease.

173. By the way, I'm Gary Busey, and you're in my home in Malibu.

174. Busey credits 12 step programs with saving him from cocaine and alcohol.

175. Hi. Hi, Gary.

176. 12 step program was given to us through Bill

177. Wilson and Doctor Bob from God.

178. It was a very, very needed thing

179. at that time and still is today.

180. The AA movement was born two years after the end of prohibition.

181. That was 1935.

182. We guess God was too busy to give it to mankind before then.

183. A couple of down on their luck drunks named Bill Wilson and Bob Smith

184. had a brainstorm

185. lean on another boozer for moral support when the urge to drink strikes.

186. It's not a terrible idea, but it turned into a cult.

187. In the years to come, these guys would become known as Bill W and doctor Bob.

188. Their concept caught on.

189. By 1939, their club adopted the name of Alcoholics Anonymous.

190. Bill W wrote what has come to be known as the Big Book,

191. and it was there the crux of AA philosophy.

192. The 12 Steps was first revealed

193. today.

194. AA operates on a budget of about $7 million per year,

195. and if you're in the cult, the Big Book is nearly as revered as the Bible.

196. In terms of this journey.

197. we are going to be using a book, called The Big Book.

198. Jesus Christ, if that's a big book.

199. He must be a fucking giant. Ron.

200. Save yourselves.

201. Ron. 12 step community has saved millions upon millions of lives.

202. Wally Payton, founder of Back to Basics, a return to the original

203. 12 step program of the 1940s.

204. I'm always excited to talk to people about Doctor Bob's program.

205. They really did have the answers.

206. The 12 steps are good.

207. All of them are very good, but the most important one is the third one.

208. For me,

209. because that's when you turn it over to God.

210. You know, we know Gary and he's not a loser.

211. Gary, you're cool, you're strong, you're funny, you're a great actor.

212. You're a nut, not a loser.

213. You're eccentric, yes, but powerless to change your own life.

214. No one believes that Park teller bringing Jonesy.

215. Sorry. Piano player. Jones.

216. He used to be quite fat, 90 pounds fatter.

217. He developed his own special one step program.

218. It's like the 12 step with some minor adjustments.

219. And it can work for just about anything.

220. Jonesy, tell about it.

221. Just stop fucking eating so much.

222. Thank you.

223. May not be easy, but it's true.

224. I really didn't have a problem

225. surrendering to a higher power because I knew that I wasn't it.

226. I knew that of my own

227. will, of my own power.

228. I could not stop drinking.

229. The fountains of a were based on some religious principles.

230. Skipp Davis, recovering alcoholic, San Francisco, California.

231. There's something out there bigger than us that can help us through

232. some of the difficult times.

233. how many people, practice prayer and meditation this morning?

234. The 11 step.

235. Why is it that alcoholism or addiction or whatever

236. you want to call it,

237. chemical dependency, as I call it, is the only condition in the United States

238. for which we see the solution as being only a spiritual solution.

239. Deedee Stout and Skipp

240. Davis are both veterans of addiction and successful recoveries,

241. but they disagree on whether 12 step programs are the only way to go.

242. We sat them down to hash it out and as a six

243. sort of joke, we shot this confrontation in the bar.

244. I don't know, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

245. The reliance on a higher power

246. is certainly one of the premises that 12 step works on.

247. Right?

248. And arguably, I think that that is one of the key,

249. places someone needs to be have to have some spirituality and move into recovery.

250. Would you disagree?

251. I think it depends on how you want to define spirituality.

252. If that means that I have to be going

253. to church or believe in a higher power than I think that that's ridiculous.

254. You would not advocate 12 step as a as a beginning of a for treatment for some.

255. No, I would never suggest that.

256. There's also a great number of people

257. who have stopped their their unhealthy behaviors.

258. I don't know,

259. maybe they get into yoga or whatever it is that they find that works for them.

260. But would you also agree that that's a smaller percent of.

261. No, I would not agree with that. You have to make the decision.

262. So let's talk about what advocates.

263. You were an advocate 12 step.

264. No, I would not have it. Well, I certainly would. I know you do.

265. You know I certainly would.

266. The spiritual component is one that you make it as you choose.

267. I know people who are atheists that, you know, the spiritual component to

268. them could be a rock.

269. There are people who make their higher power the tree in their front yard.

270. I mean, it doesn't.

271. Whatever works for them, it works.

272. Sure.

273. Your addiction, with the help of a god or a rock or a tree.

274. Is anybody not insulted by that?

275. Maybe there are some druids who are pissed off, but that statement

276. shows no more respect for God lovers than it shows for atheists.

277. That's a wanting to have it both ways.

278. Either there is a god or there isn't.

279. There are some important fundamental differences between God and the rock.

280. First of all, there actually is a rock.

281. No, no, there really is a rock.

282. There's a rock.

283. Despite the

284. fact that people in AA say the higher power can be anything.

285. There is one thing that it cannot be, and that is yourself.

286. You are not in charge of your own life.

287. Common sense tells us that if we are led to believe that

288. we can't do something, we're likely to prove that to be true.

289. It becomes a self-love filling prophecy.

290. What about people who say, but AA works?

291. I've got a brother, an uncle, a friend, whatever who was saved through AA.

292. Well, great, but give your friend some credit.

293. He made the choice to quit when he picked up the phone, and it worked

294. because he wanted to work and he made it work.

295. He wasn't powerless.

296. It was powerful.

297. How much did I actually have to do with your friend's success?

298. Good question.

299. How effective are 12 step programs in AA in particular?

300. We pestered Alcoholics Anonymous to give us the hard data

301. on their success rate when they stopped returning our calls.

302. We went to their office in New York City.

303. Notice the building's name, the Inter Church Center.

304. We sent in one of our intrepid producers with a camera to get some answers.

305. Notice the hat?

306. What you're about to see is footage actually shot inside their office

307. building.

308. Right after we stepped off the elevator,

309. we noticed the word God just about everywhere we looked.

310. God, God, God.

311. The word rock doesn't appear anywhere.

312. We tried to find somebody to explain how AA wasn't

313. a faith based organization, but couldn't find anyone around

314. if they were hiding from a guy wearing a bullshit baseball cap.

315. Or maybe it was a happy hour.

316. We hate this Michael Moore shit.

317. But the big point is, if your technique works

318. and your numbers are good, you aren't hiding.

319. You're shouting.

320. The gist of 12 step programs

321. is that you absolutely must, turn

322. your will in your life over to the care of a higher power called God,

323. a very specific God who cares what you do

324. day in and day out, or you will die.

325. You will end up in jail, institutionalized, or you will be dead.

326. This is Steve Mack. He's a legal researcher.

327. Steve offers legal assistance to others fighting the 12 step chain gang.

328. He got stepped all over by 12 step when he was suffering from substance abuse.

329. 20 years ago.

330. I was forced into 12 step treatment.

331. My employer gave me a choice of going into this 12 step treatment or being fired.

332. When Steve refused to admit he was a hopeless, spineless loser

333. in love with God or a rock, he was indeed fired.

334. See, there was a higher power in Steve's work.

335. The notion that you're personally incompetent and completely

336. unable to make decisions for yourself without, with respect to your entire life,

337. is a notion that is intended to undermine your sense of self-confidence

338. and self-esteem so as to make you amenable to religious conversion.

339. Meanwhile, back on the bar.

340. If we want to look at people's use, people's use is always a decision.

341. You make a decision every single time you do anything.

342. I don't give a shit what it is.

343. And there I would disagree

344. because we now know that it's also a brain based disease.

345. Oh, please. Why are you going to blame the victim?

346. I'm not blaming the victim. It's not about blame.

347. It's about responsibility.

348. It's about saying, you know what?

349. Even if you have a disease, it's still your responsibility.

350. They're going to work this out.

351. Many of

352. the people who enter AA have been ordered to by the courts,

353. go to AA or lose your license or by their employer.

354. Go to or lose your job or insurance companies go to AA or lose your benefits.

355. So for a lot of people AA, AA is compulsory religion.

356. We have a few problems here, not the least of which is the Constitution.

357. A little piece of paper that teller

358. and I kind of sorta absolutely fucking believe in.

359. And it says in the USA you can't mandate religion.

360. The government, including the judiciary,

361. has no business sentencing people to religious faith.

362. Ben Weisner, American Civil Liberties Union it's

363. a core doctrine of our Constitution that somebody can't be punished for.

364. Not subscribing to the majority's religious tenets.

365. And so it's unacceptable that courts would require someone

366. to participate in a process that's avowedly religious.

367. But they do, and they have.

368. Gary Busey disagrees.

369. You do have a choice

370. to make the right choice,

371. and you do have a choice to make the wrong choice.

372. But those places show you where the wrong choices will take you.

373. As you have learned by making the wrong choice in your choice, making.

374. Or at least we think he disagrees.

375. The good news is that the courts may be coming to their senses,

376. at least on this issue.

377. We've got decisions out of the second circuit,

378. out of the Seventh Circuit, the Third Circuit.

379. There's no appellate court that's found Choiceless participation

380. in a 12 step program to be

381. constitutional.

382. But while the courts are dragging their feet into the 21st century,

383. thousands more will be dragged into a religious meetings against their will.

384. I guess they really are powerless.

385. I personally believe

386. that this is one of the greatest spiritual books ever written.

387. That if you follow the directions in this book,

388. you will change your life.

389. AA was started in

390. 1935 and the treatment has remained the same since then.

391. Now, if alcoholism is in fact the disease, what treatment

392. be the same today as it was threescore nine years ago?

393. If your doctor told you he was going to treat your cancer

394. with the same method that was used in 1935, you'd scream and run.

395. Real science is refined and changed all the time.

396. Now, now, maybe we're being too harsh.

397. There are two reasons it might not have changed since 1935.

398. Number one, it's religion and religion.

399. Change is tantamount to heresy.

400. It's faith.

401. It's not supposed to be tested by science.

402. Or number two, the treatment works infallibly for everyone all the time.

403. I wonder what it is.

404. I didn't want to go to two, I said I hated it.

405. No need. It. Why?

406. Because especially where you go and takes away your arrogance.

407. And it puts you face to face with your reality.

408. As long as your reality includes

409. a God who might be a rock and who didn't give a shit before 1935.

410. The great thing about AA AA is that it works.

411. The 12 step program works.

412. Here are the official

413. stats of AA success rate the percentage of people who,

414. with their help, got on a wagon and stayed there.

415. Okay, so there there are no figures.

416. AA doesn't publish them.

417. Must be an oversight.

418. No way.

419. A successful organization which our courts often force

420. people to attend, would intentionally leave out the one figure

421. that justifies their expenses and our support.

422. Luckily, they do do an internal survey of their membership every three years.

423. Have we got our sticky hands on one compiled in 1989?

424. We know, we know fucking 1989.

425. We really tried. It was all we could get. But.

426. But check this out.

427. AA is on words.

428. About half those coming to AA for the first time

429. remain less than three months and it gets worse.

430. Check out this chart showing that after 12 months, AA success rate is averaged at.

431. Pay attention people 5%.

432. You know what the rate

433. is for people quitting without AA just on their own?

434. Yeah, 5% AA it's 5% with or without you.

435. If you take nothing else from this show, please, for the love of rock,

436. remember those two numbers with a 5%

437. without a 5%.

438. What's their internal explanation?

439. Well, maybe this is why they're not talking.

440. Quote.

441. Unfortunately, there seems to be no way in which the reasons

442. for departure can be determined.

443. The research on the effectiveness of treatment

444. shows that treatment is

445. as effective as no treatment at all.

446. There it is.

447. AA contributes nothing worse than nothing.

448. It's government mandated religious nothing.

449. It's it's worthless.

450. Mandated crap. Religious nothing.

451. Fucking worthless, mandated fucking loser ass crap religious.

452. And there's nothing you. It's that clear.

453. Given a choice between going to AA meetings and drinking?

454. I'd rather drink.

455. I would feel more like drinking

456. when I left that meeting than I did when I walked into the meeting.

457. They suggested strongly that you attend 90 meetings in 90 days.

458. 90 meetings in 90 days. Why?

459. Oh, I had a life.

460. One of the requirements is you have to stand up and say,

461. hi, I'm John, I'm an alcoholic.

462. And I have kind of this, philosophical problem with saying

463. I'm this, I'm this, I'm this.

464. Just sit around and you're constantly referred to yourself as an alcoholic.

465. Can be degrading.

466. It's humiliating.

467. if you feel comfortable saying it, great.

468. But I felt like a lot of it was forced.

469. And I understand they feel like they're leading the lambs.

470. You know.

471. They start getting into AA speak, and like, no one's saying anything original.

472. They're reading a ticker tape

473. that's coming out of their mouth that someone has typed.

474. You're made to feel that you have to believe the same thing that they do,

475. because if you don't, then

476. you're not going to you're not going to make it.

477. And there's an odd irony.

478. The very AA meetings at work to free you from your time wasting

479. compulsion can become a new kind of time wasting compulsion.

480. You are no longer addicted to your, drug of choice.

481. But now you're addicted to going to these meetings and meeting these people

482. time after time after time.

483. And people keep going for some because they have to.

484. Some because they're told they should

485. and others because they sadly have nothing else in their lives.

486. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you.

487. Let's give everybody a hand.

488. Wow. Woo.

489. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing

490. over and over again and expecting different results.

491. Right? Correct.

492. So what the hell are we doing with treatment?

493. We're doing the same thing over and over and over again.

494. Throwing 12 step at it as the model does.

495. You're that's going to cure everything. Which is ridiculous.

496. Is that the.

497. 7% of the treatment facilities, nine states use. 12.

498. So now you're saying that

499. that 97% are all wrong?

500. I would say yes in the sense that they need to be giving other options.

501. I see that folks who probably would have died

502. in the 12 step, approach have

503. wives. In the S.O.S. approach.

504. Jim Christopher runs S.O.S., or

505. Secular Organization for sobriety.

506. S.O.S.

507. is the largest non 12 step recovery program in the U.S.

508. those seeking treatment here don't rely on God to get sober.

509. Only themselves.

510. You may be a believer religious person.

511. You may not be.

512. You're welcome at S.O.S.

513. because we don't discuss those things.

514. We discuss getting off the source and the drugs and staying off

515. and helping each other, supporting each other in that process.

516. Sue Ellen Calderwood is in a program called Assisted Recovery,

517. which also avoids any religious overtones.

518. We don't strike that you God is going to take care of us.

519. Our spirit is going to take care of us.

520. We have to change.

521. And we could only change by our behavior.

522. And it it is up to us which path we want to take.

523. This myth has been created, so to speak, that

524. that the 12 steps are the only method of recovery,

525. and that if you don't do the 12 steps, then you're you're bound to fail.

526. And we found that that was absolutely false.

527. Lloyd McCaskey, director, Assisted recovery.

528. And for years Lloyd counseled alcohol dependent adults in Arizona's

529. homeless shelters. Years from now, he's.

530. Strictly preach the traditional 12 steps.

531. But the people he was trying to help kept drinking.

532. And Lloyd was not brainwashed.

533. He hoped there was another way.

534. The medical community in the scientific and research community

535. has given us some amazing tools to use in the recovery process,

536. and the vast majority of Americans and Americans dependent upon

537. alcohol and drugs have no idea that these medications and tools

538. are available to assist them in the recovery process.

539. In 1994, the FDA approved the drug

540. naltrexone for use in the treatment of alcoholism.

541. Studies at the University of Pennsylvania showed that it not only reduce

542. the urge to drink for those who took the drug and drank,

543. it eliminated their buzz, curiously asking AA veteran.

544. And they not only reject the new drug alternative, they fight it.

545. Mel Trex is just put to Band-Aid over the problem.

546. Yeah, I'm skeptical of any drug to deal with an alcohol problem.

547. For what it does do, which is stop.

548. Those cravings.

549. It really does work.

550. Samuel Walker, physician, Phoenix, Arizona.

551. For a lot of people to have that problem off their shoulder

552. so they don't have to, you know, tough it out, as it were.

553. It really helps them to get busy and get about the rest of the business of

554. getting well. The big book.

555. When it comes to conquering alcoholism, AA is not the only game in town.

556. I hope we are moving toward a day when AA will assume its rightful place

557. as one of a number of treatment approaches,

558. and that people will stop saying that it is the correct approach

559. or the one approach.

560. People will stop prescribing it from the courts.

561. What you need to do is you need to take control of your life.

562. You need to advocate for yourself.

563. You need to do research.

564. You need to go to the internet.

565. You need to find the different options that are out there.

566. If you're watching this episode and you're doing shots of tequila,

567. not not to get through the show because you have a drinking problem,

568. know this you don't need 12 steps to quit drinking.

569. You just need one.

570. Stop thinking of yourself as a victim.

571. Choose the way you want to live.

572. If you need help making the change, get it and you have a choice there to hell.

573. If you're already religious, maybe AA is the way to go.

574. Maybe prayer and self-loathing suits you, but if you're not religious,

575. there are lots of other choices, including just fucking quitting.

576. Hey, it all works 5% of the time.

577. It all works if you work it

578. one step.

579. Take control of your life all by yourself.

580. No bullshit.

581. It's called a miracle.

582. Why don't I take you around the house and show you

583. some nice.

584. You know.