Mindhunter 1x8

1. "Deviant.

2. Pyromania.

3. Torture.

4. Mutilation."

5. I understand what you're trying to do, and I appreciate it.

6. Using Career Week to discuss early intervention, it's a great idea.

7. I had been thinking about how we educate kids when you called.

8. And coming from the FBI, it is a powerful statement.

9. But how do I get it across if I can't use these words?

10. "Mutilation."

11. If you use that, I guarantee you that at least one of them,

12. Jenny Cromer, Michael Stahl, these are confident, curious children.

13. They will ask you what "mutilation" means.

14. - And I can describe it, and specifically— - And then...

15. a few of them will go home,

16. they'll have nightmares,

17. and tomorrow I'll be fielding calls from parents

18. who will be concerned—

19. - Parents should be discussing this, too. - Absolutely.

20. And if I had the time to build a foundation for their understanding,

21. - I'd be on board.

22. So no "torture."

23. Could I say "hurting"?

24. "Hurting" animals?

25. What about "being mean" to animals?

26. You really think that "pyromania" is too much?

27. - My students will not know what that is. - "Arson"?

28. Mm-mm.

29. - "Deviant"? - They will not know what that is.

30. Even if I used it in context?

31. It's harsh.

32. We need to prepare them for the world, yes.

33. But we also need to protect them from it.

34. Guess I could say...

35. "disturbing."

36. Listen, Agent Ford.

37. Show them your badge.

38. - They'll be thrilled.

39. My job at the FBI is to study people who exhibit disturbing behavior.

40. If I can classify this behavior,

41. I can help the police catch these people when they commit a crime.

42. But lately I've been asking myself:

43. can we stop these people from becoming disturbing in the first place?

44. That's where you come in.

45. By your age, we can start seeing the signs.

46. In this whole classroom, statistically speaking,

47. disturbing behavior would show up in about one of you.

48. Say you have a friend who likes lighting fires.

49. I mean, deliberately setting things on fire, like toys or trash.

50. Another sign that your friend is disturbed,

51. is if he shows a lack of remorse.

52. That is, if he's done something wrong, he doesn't feel bad about it.

53. - Yes. - Are only boys disturbed?

54. Perhaps I should be saying he or she,

55. but yes, actually, it is mostly males who are disturbed.

56. - Sorry, guys.

57. Another thing you should be aware of at your age

58. is the way we treat animals.

59. Now animals are nice to us, so we should be nice back.

60. But say you have a friend who is being mean to an animal.

61. Very mean. You should take note of that.

62. Yes.

63. My brother throws rocks at our dog.

64. Well, that doesn't sound very nice, but let me ask you:

65. are they big rocks or little rocks?

66. - Mm... medium rocks. - Okay.

67. The kind of behavior towards animals that I'm talking about is, um...

68. forcible...

69. It's not just about being mean to animals, it's...

70. It's about hurting the animal, and you'll know when that's happening

71. because an animal will let you know when it is being hurt.

72. In any case, if you see this, you should tell a teacher, or your mom, or your dad.

73. The idea is that you stop your friend, who is a disturbing kid,

74. from becoming a disturbing adult,

75. because one day he may start being mean to people.

76. So...

77. Who wants to see my badge?

78. It means so much to these students

79. that someone like yourself would take an interest.

80. Sure, that was great. They're very smart.

81. Top standardized test scores in the district.

82. Well, if you want to do any more outreach, just let me know.

83. Don't say that, I'll hold you to it. Thanks again.

84. Thank you.

85. Sorry. Bye.

86. Mr. Ford?

87. Holden.

88. I'm Janet Ebner. I teach fourth grade here.

89. - May I have a moment? - Sure.

90. I know you weren't here today to talk to us,

91. but I've heard about some behavior that I'd classify as disturbing.

92. Okay.

93. Well, odd at the very least, but I believe my instincts are good.

94. It all starts with instinct.

95. And I'm not the only one.

96. Some of the other teachers are concerned,

97. several parents, certain members of the school board.

98. We even took it to the local police.

99. What is it?

100. Let's go to the staff room. This way.

101. Thank you.

102. - He has a thing for tickling. - Who does?

103. Principal Wade, Roger, tickles the children.

104. - Where? - In his office.

105. I mean, where on the body?

106. Their feet.

107. Sometimes a child will go to his office for disciplinary reasons,

108. that's when it happens.

109. Is it punishment?

110. I think it's supposed to mitigate the punishment,

111. but then he gives them money.

112. - For what? - Nickels.

113. He gives them nickels if they can withstand the tickling.

114. Okay, well...

115. that is odd.

116. - It's completely inappropriate. - Has anybody talked with him?

117. The board questioned him, nothing happened.

118. But somebody took it to the police?

119. I did, at the urging of some parents.

120. - Parents asked you to go to the police? - I talked to a Detective Barr.

121. He said they'd look into it, write something up.

122. That was five months ago.

123. - Have you seen a report? - No, it's like the whole thing went away.

124. Maybe you could check in with him.

125. This isn't exactly my area.

126. - This is what you were talking about.

127. At least by our definition at the Behavioral Science Unit,

128. tickling is not considered deviant behavior.

129. Deviant? You said "disturbing."

130. Whatever's going on here is obviously nuanced.

131. I'd have to witness it or at least get his version.

132. - Do you have children? - Not yet.

133. Imagine one of those seven-year-olds is yours.

134. Principal Wade has her take off her shoes and socks so that he can tickle her feet.

135. Wouldn't you be worried one day he'd ask her to take something else off?

136. Put a call in, please?

137. Where were you? I was worried.

138. Sorry, my car's in the shop. I had to wait for Patrick to give me a ride.

139. - Patrick? - Yeah, you know, from my psych class.

140. These used to be cold.

141. - Put ice in it. - Gross.

142. Here, I'll stick it in the freezer.

143. Remember the last time you did that?

144. Okay, Dad.

145. I would've picked you up.

146. At school? No, it's way too far out of your way.

147. So what happened to your car?

148. Uh... maintenance.

149. You, Debbie Mitford, took your car in for maintenance?

150. I've kind of been forgetting to put oil in it.

151. You seized your engine?

152. Something like that.

153. The guys at the shop gave me enough grief, so you don't have to.

154. I don't think I can not give you grief.

155. My dad used to remind me to change my oil.

156. Maybe you could do the same.

157. Maybe get Patrick to remind you.

158. You are so stupid.

159. - Am I? - Yes.

160. Why is it so hard to stay mad at you?

161. I don't know.

162. - Nickels for tickles.

163. - You don't think it's harmless fun? - No, it's creepy and disgusting.

164. I would not want any principal touching my kid's feet.

165. He seems like a good guy. And he's been great for that school.

166. Did the superintendent talk to him?

167. I don't know. I should ask.

168. My cousin had this first grade teacher who would give her a sticker

169. if she'd let him pinch her cheek. He did it to all the girls.

170. It only came out years later that he was pinching some of them in other places.

171. - Was he ever caught? - No.

172. She didn't find out until her classmates started comparing notes

173. at a high school reunion.

174. Kids won't talk about that stuff when they're little.

175. They assume the adult is right, especially if he's an authority figure.

176. I wonder how many girls he did that to.

177. Well, he was a teacher for 40 years.

178. I can't believe it didn't come out.

179. There were whispers, but by that point he was retired.

180. It's escalating behavior...

181. just like with Brudos and Roger.

182. Almost like they can't help themselves. They've got this... compulsion.

183. You think Roger is in any way similar to Brudos?

184. Both of them sure like these.

185. Looks like somebody else does, too.

186. I have to go back to Oregon this week.

187. Nine more rounds with Butterball Brudos.

188. Listen...

189. if you need a ride home from school again,

190. call me.

191. Okay.

192. Excuse me, Officer.

193. - Can I help you? Know Detective Barr?

194. Staff politics. Women like that are always looking for a pot to stir.

195. She seemed genuinely concerned.

196. - She wasn't married, as I remember. - What does that have to do with it?

197. She's got extra energy.

198. Apparently, some parents are concerned, too.

199. - She said that, but I never saw them. - Did you follow up at all?

200. There's no victim. No one's pressing charges.

201. He's touching kids.

202. Giving them money for it.

203. He's tickling kids, that's not a crime.

204. I can't arrest him unless he does something illegal.

205. I explained this to Ms. Ebner, I shouldn't have to explain it to the FBI.

206. Unless you're gonna start predicting what people do.

207. May I see the report?

208. - Why am I reading this? - I thought we might look into it.

209. A foot tickler?

210. It could be a form of podophilia... like Brudos.

211. This guy's a grade school principal with no record.

212. People are concerned. No one will help them.

213. - Just one teacher. - No.

214. I talked to the superintendent.

215. Some members of the school board have been complaining.

216. Holden, we have a stack of applications to review.

217. I don't see your stack getting shorter.

218. - I looked at them, all "nos." - No as in, don't even interview?

219. - They're greenhorns. - So were you.

220. We mainly need someone to take over transcribing.

221. They're all gunning to talk to lust murderers.

222. They bring nothing to the table.

223. Tell Wendy.

224. Okay.

225. How's this?

226. Want me to take us to the airport tomorrow?

227. I decided last night. I'm not going.

228. - What? - I'm not going back to Oregon.

229. You expect me to interview Brudos alone?

230. If you want.

231. But we were just getting him to open up.

232. That's why I'm not going.

233. When did you get so fragile?

234. Bill... I do not want to do this alone.

235. So don't. We have a ton of material from last time.

236. Not nearly enough.

237. - I just came up with a whole new strategy. - Go for it.

238. You're really not coming.

239. I'm really not coming.

240. Okay. Then I'll just show him that one of us isn't a big, fat, fucking pussy.

241. Yeah. Show him that.

242. Hi.

243. - Something wrong? - I can't close my recorder.

244. Give it to me.

245. Thank you.

246. I'm pretty handy.

247. I'm one of the only... inmates

248. they allow in hobby shop.

249. Really?

250. Yeah. I can use scissors under supervision.

251. Leather boring tools.

252. The parole board should really take that into account.

253. - And we're live. - Okay.

254. So, uh, today...

255. - I'd like to pick up with things— - Where's Bill?

256. - He couldn't be here this time. - Did I scare him off?

257. No. Uh...

258. We're doing some hiring back at the office.

259. Fresh meat for the mill?

260. - That's exactly right.

261. Bill, I miss you.

262. Please come back.

263. Okay. I'd like to take it from the murder of the second girl, Jane Weber.

264. Okay.

265. Her car broke down on the highway, you pulled over.

266. - Yeah, helped her out. - How did you help her?

267. Said, "Let's go home, we'll call a mechanic."

268. - Home to your house? - Yeah.

269. - Did you call the mechanic? - Didn't get that far.

270. Why not?

271. She was interested in my photography.

272. - Did she also want to be a model? - Yeah.

273. Funny how all these girls you met wanted that.

274. Women like men to pay attention to 'em.

275. So, did you...

276. - Invited her to the garage. - Mm-hmm.

277. - Took some photos— - What kind of photos?

278. You know, headshots.

279. Right. And after these headshots...

280. She decided to walk home.

281. And that's the last you saw of her.

282. Last anyone saw of her, as far as I remember.

283. Her body was found in the Willamette River tied to an auto transmission

284. to weigh it down.

285. The transmission was traced back to a car that you owned.

286. Yeah, I know.

287. You have any smokes?

288. Yeah.

289. So was that all part of the police plot?

290. Oh, yeah.

291. The transmission, the photos, the foot... all of it.

292. Well...

293. someone killed those girls.

294. Yeah, I know. I have a whole theory about that.

295. Really?

296. Let's hear it.

297. Well... these girls are disappearing.

298. Body parts showing up in the river. Police get involved.

299. The killer realizes things are heating up and splits.

300. Probably chopping up girls in Seattle, Idaho, Canada, as we speak.

301. Meanwhile, they need to blame someone.

302. They catch me sniffing around some coeds.

303. I'm not saying I'm an angel.

304. Search my house, find a few pairs of shoes,

305. decide I'm their fall guy.

306. Everyone feels safe, DA gets re-elected, yada yada yada.

307. It is a pretty big coincidence that you met a couple of the girls

308. that became his victims.

309. Huge coincidence.

310. Do you think that he... planned his attacks?

311. Maybe the first one fell into his lap,

312. but then maybe after that, he got a taste for it.

313. Oh. Now that's interesting.

314. Because there were no photos of the first girl, right?

315. But the other three, it was like he was prepared.

316. Do you think that even before the first one,

317. he fantasized about murdering a woman?

318. Definitely.

319. What do you think he fantasized about?

320. Choking them, chopping them up, all that stuff they said I did.

321. So the murders were just an extension of thoughts he already had,

322. maybe for a long time.

323. You'd have to think about it pretty hard to go through with it.

324. You'd have to be... driven.

325. You mean like, out of control?

326. Maybe his real life was out of control, but his fantasy life was...

327. A... place where he could feel powerful.

328. - Makes sense. - But then why—

329. For example...

330. Laura Sullivan was hit from behind.

331. Jane Weber was choked from behind.

332. Why would he do it that way?

333. Didn't want them looking at him?

334. Why not?

335. It might not have been about watching them die.

336. You know, because then he would have tortured them, right?

337. It might just been about having them quiet.

338. So that he could play with them?

339. Like you'd play with a doll?

340. Yeah, there were all these photos of 'em in different positions.

341. - Have intercourse with them? - Sure.

342. But then he played with some of them before they died, as well.

343. Kathy Schmidt was photographed in a piece of lingerie that was not hers.

344. Oh, she probably liked that.

345. Well, she was kidnapped from a parking garage.

346. How do you know she was kidnapped?

347. You think she went willingly?

348. All I'm saying is, all the women I meet...

349. Want to be models.

350. So do you think that with Kathy Schmidt it was consensual,

351. she didn't realize that she was going to be killed?

352. She may have been getting the feeling, you know.

353. I mean, he may have made it clear at a certain point

354. that she needed to take the pictures if she wanted him to let her go.

355. - She was playing along. - Yeah.

356. Do you think the killer enjoyed that, too?

357. He might've thought that's what you get.

358. That's what you get when you want to be a model?

359. When you want people to look at you.

360. Do you think that the killer found it exciting to, uh...

361. get some of that control back in his real life?

362. Oh, yeah.

363. Probably made him want more.

364. After he got a taste for it, like you said.

365. After he got a taste.

366. I guess... we all have fantasies, don't we?

367. I can remember my first fantasy of girls.

368. What, um...

369. What was your first fantasy?

370. Oh...

371. Must have been... nine or ten.

372. There was a woman in a tunnel. I'd trapped her there.

373. She was like this white shape in the darkness.

374. I made her do things.

375. At that point, there wasn't even anything sexual about it.

376. I just remember her...

377. begging for... mercy.

378. Do you still have fantasies, Jerry?

379. No. I don't.

380. Tell the parole board that.

381. Day three, he takes the stand.

382. Now we knew he was lying,

383. but it could've gone either way

384. because he had two other Klansmen to back him up.

385. So after lunch, I waited for cross-examination.

386. I slide right behind his girlfriend.

387. I drape my arm across the back of her bench,

388. I lean in real close, so, uh...

389. The guy's eyes bug out.

390. He starts stammering, he comes completely unglued,

391. - and we get a conviction. Amazing.

392. Thirteen years. That is great.

393. Great stories, Jim.

394. So nice to meet you.

395. Thanks for coming all the way up from Atlanta.

396. Word is out y'all are onto something big.

397. - I couldn't wait to see for myself. I hope we lived up to the hype.

398. Oh, you surpassed it.

399. We have to meet a few more people, but we can let you know soon.

400. I'll say it one more time, I'd love to join the team.

401. - We'd love to have you. - Thank you.

402. He's black.

403. Nothing gets past you.

404. He's our best candidate. I think we should hire him.

405. Our list of potential subjects are 80, 90 percent white and probably racist.

406. Does that mean no?

407. He could incite a response that affects the study.

408. That means no.

409. Don't put that on his assessment. We can't be seen as racists.

410. I thought our newbies would be transcribing.

411. Did Brudos behave?

412. He was almost pleasant.

413. Seems repeat visits are important.

414. Did you confide in him about your cum sock?

415. Our new team member will train with transcription,

416. but we're looking for someone that has operations experience

417. so that we can expand our subjects' interviews.

418. - Especially if Bill keeps wussing out. - Stop whining.

419. How many have you seen?

420. Oh, I didn't think you were interested in the process.

421. Well, look, the gang's all here. Come in.

422. This is Gregg Smith, he's one of your candidates.

423. Gregg's done a lot of work in the field, he's a talented agent.

424. His dad and I studied pre-law together at Dartmouth.

425. I hope you give him a good shake.

426. It's dark and all I see is his knuckles gripping the stock,

427. and he's yelling, "Halt! Police! Drop the gun!"

428. - I realize this guy is about to shoot me. - Whoa.

429. And then I hear Mike yell, "He's an FBI agent!"

430. He saved my life.

431. Because I was frozen, I couldn't speak.

432. Uniform lowers his shotgun, and we take off again after the driver.

433. Mike catches him and nearly beats the flimflam out of him

434. because he's so keyed up after watching me almost get blown away.

435. I had to pull him off the guy. But anyway...

436. a great partner.

437. Well, you did your partner a good deed. I bet he's grateful.

438. The guys call me "The Padre" and they come to confession at my desk.

439. You Catholic?

440. My mother's Catholic, my father's Quaker.

441. No shit. - How does that work?

442. Our family joke was that we'd never run out of guilt or oats.

443. Are you religious?

444. - Yes, ma'am. - Dr. Carr.

445. Doctor. Yes.

446. I have to admit that as a kid I leaned toward the drama of the Church.

447. The organ, the incense,

448. Jesus rising from the dead Easter morning.

449. Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

450. I am Christian. So is my wife.

451. She's Catholic. We've already got two little girls.

452. We're trying to slow-play the whole big family thing.

453. Good and evil, right and wrong?

454. - Are these concepts that you believe in? - Yes, I do.

455. Binary thinking could hamstring you

456. when it comes to critical assessment of our subjects.

457. We need to understand the gray areas.

458. The world is complex, I get that. I can check my judgment at the door.

459. The people we work with have done things you don't even want to imagine.

460. - I've read some of your cases. It's one thing to read about it.

461. It's another to sit three feet away from a guy who's delighted to tell you

462. how hard it was to stick his dick in his mother's neck

463. after he sawed off her head.

464. What made you apply for the study?

465. My daughters.

466. When I hear about girls disappearing...

467. This may sound corny, but I want to make the world a safer place for them.

468. He's smart. He's a family guy. He knows what's at stake.

469. Ugh! He's got you wrapped around his little Ivy League finger.

470. - You think it's an act? - He's a mole for Shepard.

471. - Come on. I'm serious.

472. When's the last time Shepard came down here?

473. He's trying to make sure we're not smearing the good name of the FBI.

474. Don't kid yourself. We need Shepard.

475. His heart's in the right place. I think Agent Smith is earnest.

476. - And that's a good thing? - What about a trial period?

477. To see if we can beat the flimflam out of him?

478. What's going on?

479. Just seeing what he can take.

480. What do you got him on? Bittaker and Norris.

481. - Are you trying to get rid of this guy? - So listen. This thing with Roger Wade...

482. - Who? - The principal at Shady Lane Elementary.

483. The foot tickler?

484. After I talked to the superintendent, the school board had a meeting.

485. - You've got to be kidding. - They're begging us to look into it.

486. - They're begging? - They're... asking.

487. Our LEAA review is coming up, what are you still doing on this goose chase?

488. Gregg can finish the paperwork. Let's give this a day.

489. - There are meaningful signs here. - You're not dragging me into this.

490. What's the point if we don't apply it to the real world?

491. We're trying to save women from getting pulled into vans and cut to pieces,

492. not crucify some schoolmarm who hasn't done anything.

493. Yet. Certainly our goal is to be preemptive.

494. We're the FBI, Holden. That is not our goal.

495. Yet.

496. So...

497. still want this job?

498. The students certainly don't complain. They enjoy the contact.

499. Yes, but as you said to me when I was here before,

500. it might be best for parents to determine—

501. We are a community.

502. And I want the children to know that.

503. In the five years that I've been here,

504. their test scores have gone up almost 30 percent.

505. And it's not because I'm a strict disciplinarian,

506. or I pile on the homework, or I cut recess.

507. It is because I apply a personal touch.

508. - These children matter to me. - That is quite clear.

509. We have special games, sports,

510. art projects, teamwork activities.

511. I am teaching happiness.

512. With all of that, why the need to tickle?

513. All right, let me give you an example.

514. We had this child, six years old,

515. who said he sprained his ankle playing kickball

516. and didn't want to go to class.

517. The nurse calls me down because his ankle is not swollen,

518. but he's still claiming that it hurts.

519. Now... I don't want to call him a liar.

520. So, I wiggle his big toe.

521. Does it hurt when this little piggy goes to market?

522. How about when this little piggy stays home? He smiles.

523. He says that it tickles. So I tickle his feet.

524. The next thing I know, he's laughing.

525. He's happy, he goes back to class.

526. - Did you also give him a nickel? - I'm sure I did.

527. So the next time he goes to the store, he can get himself—

528. - What can you get for a nickel these days? - A piece of bubble gum?

529. Exactly.

530. Agent Ford, you're blowing this out of proportion.

531. We need to work on your interview technique.

532. - Sorry, was I supposed to be hard on him? - You shouldn't team up.

533. Did you think that "piggy goes to market" stuff was weird?

534. Oh, my kids love "Piggy Goes to the Market."

535. - Yeah, your kids love it from you. - A tickle's a tickle.

536. Maybe that's all it is, but...

537. if there is a sexual angle, Roger would no doubt be good at hiding it.

538. When Kemper went in for his last psychiatric evaluation,

539. he had a 15-year-old girl's head in the trunk of his car.

540. It gave him a thrill to persuade the committee successfully

541. that he was over his psychological problems,

542. knowing that he had a trophy outside.

543. Isn't that kind of extreme?

544. - You get the idea.

545. I'm glad Janet finally did something. Someone had to.

546. So you don't approve of Roger's behavior?

547. I've always thought that tickling was bizarre enough,

548. but I get parents coming to me,

549. asking why their children suddenly have pocket change.

550. How long has this gone on for?

551. I've only been at Shady Lane two years.

552. It sounds like it goes back further than that.

553. Why are parents complaining to you? Why not go to Roger?

554. He brushes them off, he's unapologetic, and he's a big deal around here.

555. I agreed to meet with you so I could share my thoughts,

556. but I hope it doesn't get back to him.

557. - You think he'd retaliate? - I don't know.

558. It's a small school, everyone seems to know about the tickling.

559. How do the children respond to his tickling?

560. They endure it.

561. They know they're going to get paid.

562. I have students coming back from his office,

563. showing off their earnings.

564. What did you think of Roger when you first came here,

565. before you knew about this?

566. I thought he was smug.

567. I transferred because I heard how great this place is,

568. but then that's all he talks about.

569. He really toots his own horn.

570. The teachers are supposed to be cheerleaders.

571. And I've always been uncomfortable with how he handles the children.

572. - What do you mean? - He's always fussing over them.

573. "Fussing"?

574. Well, it's always touchy-touchy and cutesey-cutesey.

575. Mrs. Clark, could you make a list of parents and teachers

576. that feel the same way?

577. We're meeting with a handful,

578. but we'd like to get a sense of the whole picture.

579. Is something wrong?

580. I don't want a witch hunt. I'm not vindictive.

581. I just wish he'd listen.

582. The students love Roger.

583. When he visits the class, I know it's going to be an easier day.

584. He can turn a moody room into an eager one just by walking in.

585. You've heard about the tickling?

586. Of course.

587. When my kids come back from his office, they seem happy.

588. What do you think about it?

589. It's wonderful.

590. He turns punishment into play.

591. He makes it a positive experience.

592. - Nothing could be better for them. - Have you had any parent complaints?

593. The parents I've talked to are thrilled. Except about property taxes.

594. Shady Lane has made this a desirable neighborhood.

595. What do you think of Janet Ebner?

596. Well, I don't like to speak ill of people, but she's a busybody.

597. What do you think of Mrs. Clark?

598. She's a crab.

599. Okay. I think that's all we need.

600. - Thank you for talking with us. - Thank you.

601. - So nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you.

602. He came home from Steve's house and his tongue was blue.

603. It's not like Steve's mom to give him candy, so I questioned him.

604. Found out they walked to the corner store without asking, and bought Pop Rocks.

605. Boys will be boys.

606. That's not the point.

607. We're, uh, in discussions about how much leeway Jason is allowed at this age.

608. Anyway, he's evasive when I ask him where he got the money.

609. So, I call Steve's mom. She's having the same conversation with her son.

610. Turns out they got it from Roger.

611. The principal...

612. giving them money without telling the parents.

613. But then we find out, and this is why Jason wouldn't tell me in the first place,

614. he and Steve were fighting on the playground—

615. They were kicking mud at each other, they weren't fighting.

616. They were fighting, they got sent to Roger's office.

617. He seats them side by side, makes them take off their shoes and socks,

618. and does this double tickling thing.

619. Was Jason uncomfortable with the tickling?

620. I don't think Jason understood that it was inappropriate.

621. No, he wasn't uncomfortable. The boys made up again, all buddy-buddy.

622. But they're nine-year-olds. Almost ten.

623. I could see it if they were toddlers, if this was preschool.

624. And then there's the money.

625. - And you went to Roger? Yeah. We sat down with him.

626. He made it sound like we were perverts for even asking.

627. How dare we deny our boy the, um, affection that he provides?

628. Something like that. I came away with the strangest feeling.

629. Yeah, I mean, if you don't want people touching your kid—

630. A middle-aged man touching your child's feet.

631. You should be able to tell them stop.

632. Did you ask him to stop?

633. - Absolutely. And he said— - Oh, yeah, listen to this.

634. "My covenant is not with you, it's with your son."

635. "Covenant"? He used that word?

636. Yes.

637. Is he religious?

638. - I don't know. It's an odd choice.

639. The whole thing is odd.

640. What do you think should be done about him?

641. Well, I thought about suing.

642. We want to protect Jason,

643. but we aren't sure.

644. And he wasn't traumatized. I mean, quite the opposite.

645. We thought you might have suggestions, because we don't know what to do.

646. Yeah, we don't know.

647. That's the third set of parents who don't like it.

648. - I guess they should have a say. - I think they should.

649. But is there anything going on? Is Roger dangerous?

650. Everyone seems to agree the children don't mind.

651. What about when one does?

652. Brudos kept his urges in check until something triggered him.

653. After that, everything escalated.

654. - What if a kid decides to resist Roger? - I read the Brudos files.

655. - He had a history of offenses. - It's a leap, but there is a correlation.

656. I don't think Roger can help himself any more than Brudos could stop killing.

657. In fact, giving them money might encourage them to go to his office for "punishment."

658. - Why don't we ask him to stop? - People have.

659. Let's tell him then. We're the fucking FBI.

660. Let's see if Mrs. Lane can come by in the morning, before school.

661. It's her first year and I think she's having some trouble

662. managing her students.

663. Mr. Wade, can we talk?

664. And, um, let's make a note

665. - I've signed off on the lesson plan— - In private?

666. Thank you.

667. After speaking with parents and teachers,

668. we're advising you to stop touching the children.

669. Advising me?

670. It's a trivial activity. Simply stopping will satisfy everyone.

671. It is not trivial.

672. Don't make me sound like some stranger in a raincoat.

673. We're here at the request of the superintendent.

674. Really?

675. The superintendent of the schools sent the FBI to advise me

676. to stop tickling children?

677. I have been a principal for 15 years.

678. There hasn't been a shadow on my record until now. How dare you.

679. How dare you accuse me of being inappropriate with my own students.

680. We're not accusing you. Some people are uncomfortable.

681. You are!

682. You are uncomfortable, Agent Ford. Why is that?

683. When I was here for Career Day, you asked me to edit my speech.

684. You were worried how it would affect the teachers and students. So I did.

685. I heard your concerns, I followed your advice.

686. I am advising you to hear the concerns of your teachers and your school board—

687. You didn't know what the hell you were doing that day. You still don't.

688. "Deviant."Torture."Mutilation."

689. That is your world, and it has made you paranoid.

690. That is not my school.

691. Mr. Wade.

692. I am telling you this for your own good.

693. We all have to choose between trust and fear.

694. If you ever do have children,

695. I hope that you'll think long and hard about how you want to raise them.

696. Did we do the right thing?

697. Is this a federal issue?

698. Hey.

699. - You okay?

700. - What are you doing? - Studying.

701. Can I come in?

702. I really need to study.

703. Okay.

704. - You really have to leave me alone. - I will. I promise.

705. You gotta promise-promise.

706. What are you reading?

707. The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life.

708. - Sounds interesting. - It is interesting.

709. - What's it about? - Please.

710. You promised and I really have to finish this.

711. It could help to describe what you're learning.

712. Okay.

713. It's by Erving Goffman.

714. He posits that life is like theater.

715. We tailor ourselves to fit the parts that we're playing.

716. Meaning?

717. For instance, there's the expectation that girls should be nice,

718. - that they should smile. - Okay.

719. You know, I once tried not smiling for a day, and it was really weird.

720. Why? You're not much of a smiler.

721. Even so, it made me feel really odd and it freaked people out.

722. Strangers kept asking, "Are you okay?"

723. - Did you want to smile? - No. Not once I realized what I was doing.

724. Goffman says we wear these masks to make everyone else comfortable.

725. Like you and your suits.

726. We're not talking about my clothes again.

727. Your suit is your uniform you wear to fit in at Quantico.

728. - I don't want to fit in. - Everyone is trying to fit in.

729. Guess that explains your hippie thing, too.

730. My "hippie" thing?

731. Your peasant tops, long hair, bracelets, leather sandals.

732. - Helps you assimilate on campus. - Right.

733. It's exactly the same.

734. What would you wear if no one were looking?

735. Probably nothing. What about you?

736. - I'd wear my suit. So sad.

737. I wonder if that's why everyone's so confused about Roger.

738. He's taking an activity normally reserved for family members at home

739. and applying it to the wrong environment.

740. I think that's different.

741. Look, I can't do this right now.

742. I have to finish because it's my semester project.

743. We're doing this thing tomorrow night. Come, if you're interested.

744. Blacking out a room in the Sociology building

745. so people can interact without actually being able to see each other.

746. My partner's making up a questionnaire for them

747. to describe who they think they've met.

748. Your partner?

749. Yeah. Patrick.

750. I see.

751. Were you assigned?

752. Well, we're both working on this Goffman book.

753. Oh, so you just have mutual interests.

754. I guess so.

755. Certainly seems like it.

756. Is this you not smiling as part of your experiment or...

757. No, this is just me not smiling.

758. Okay.

759. Good morning.

760. Morning.

761. Shepard wants to see you.

762. About what?

763. Your little field trip.

764. How does he know?

765. Ah. Agent Ford.

766. The superintendent asked me to take a look at the situation.

767. And you said, "Oh, yeah, this is exactly what we do here at the FBI."

768. I just thought with the correlations to the Brudos case—

769. - Are you obsessed with feet? - No, sir.

770. Because that is the only connection I can see. It is a thin one.

771. There were parents and teachers who were concerned.

772. I know the whole damn story.

773. We bumped into each other in the cafeteria.

774. This is not about how I know, it is about what the hell were you thinking?

775. Sir, I thought I would see if the things we're discovering in the interviews

776. could apply to real-life situations.

777. The Bureau does not do that. We do not get involved until a crime is committed

778. and has risen to the level of our radar.

779. With all due respect, we've helped local law enforcement solve two murder cases.

780. - In an advisory capacity— We interviewed suspects.

781. On cases where there were actual crimes.

782. I spent a single day on Roger Wade.

783. I was worried about children. I had to follow my intuition.

784. - Your what? - Mm...

785. My intuition started this. I wanted to interview Kemper.

786. Without me, there would be no study, no funding.

787. So now you know everything, is that it? Now you're Superman, with X-ray vision?

788. No, but I should be allowed a day to—

789. Predict if someone might commit a crime?

790. Who are you, the fucking thought police?

791. Thank you both.

792. Agent Smith, in your new BSU position,

793. the last thing you should be following is Agent Ford's intuition.

794. Surprise, surprise, he had my ass.

795. - You handed it to him. - Thanks, Bill.

796. - Don't know what you were thinking. - Apparently, no one does.

797. We'd like you to ask before you do something like that again.

798. - What? - Your behavior reflects on us.

799. You cannot use the study as justification to launch personal campaigns.

800. - Is that what you think I'm doing? - I really don't know.

801. I can't imagine why you would go after a respected school principal

802. with no history of abuse.

803. Because you weren't there. Even Gregg saw something wasn't right.

804. It's an incorrect application of the concepts

805. that I'm trying to teach you.

806. - This has nothing to do with concepts. - She's right, Holden.

807. What if some guy were tickling Brian's feet?

808. - Don't bring my kid into this. - Not just some guy, but a guy in power,

809. the head of the school where he will be for years.

810. He not only tickles, but gives money for putting up with it.

811. Do not use my family as an example.

812. You ask him to stop, he won't. You go to the police, they blow it off.

813. So it looks like Brian is going to get paid to get his feet tickled,

814. and who knows what else, and there's nothing you can do.

815. I'd tell him to take his fucking hands off my kid,

816. just like I'm telling you to stop using him as an excuse

817. for your unprofessional behavior.

818. I heard you could make yourself start lucid dreaming, so I got this book.

819. Door!

820. sort of self-conscious. I'm just not sure the answer's...

821. Come on, guys.

822. [man 2] Can you close the door, please?

823. [man 3] Seriously, man?

824. Behavioral Science.

825. - Holden, this is Dan Cobb with the VEA. - Yes, Dan.

826. I'm sorry to bother you this early, but the school board will be meeting today

827. to make their decision regarding Roger Wade.

828. What kind of decision?

829. Well, we're thinking about letting him go.

830. I see.

831. We'd like to know if this would be in line with your recommendation.

832. I really can't make a recommendation.

833. Yeah, I get that.

834. To be honest, we've been going in circles.

835. What troubles me is I believe he's developed a compulsion

836. that he's justifying as a choice.

837. Do you believe it's possible he can do something... inappropriate?

838. Well...

839. I can't say that his behavior wouldn't escalate to something more serious.

840. Right. I see.

841. Well, it sounds like we should be erring on the side of caution.

842. I understand.

843. Okay. Listen, thanks for your time.