Adolescence 1x3

1. Oh.

2. Do you work here?

3. - Um, I'm a visitor. - Right.

4. Right. Do you wanna just come through for a second?

5. Sorry. I'm a bit late.

6. That's all right. I saw you coming up on the cameras.

7. He's being brought down.

8. Um, I heard he was involved in a violent incident.

9. - How'd you hear that? - It was reported up.

10. - That would be useful to see— - Is that… relevant?

11. To what you'll assess?

12. I'd like to see it.

13. Okay. I'll, uh, fire up the megaport.

14. Yeah, he's been pretty quiet.

15. Don't know if that's relevant.

16. If what I think and observe is relevant to what you assess.

17. - Here we go.

18. - Yeah. It's just bruising and scratching. - I read the report.

19. - Both blame the other. - I know. I read the report.

20. You're on… five visits?

21. - Yes. - Mm.

22. Know what you're gonna say in the report?

23. I wouldn't be here if I knew that.

24. Well, the other one of you. He only needed three, so—

25. You can't say any more.

26. It's important I don't know what the other psychologist says,

27. does, or thinks.

28. It's about making the right assessment, not the fastest.

29. - Sorry. I'm just being an idiot. - No, I did… That's just the way I work.

30. Right. That's Jamie in place.

31. I'll take you through.

32. I need to get a hot chocolate from the machine.

33. I remember.

34. Get off me!

35. No! You get off!

36. Yeah, we've got a torture lab in the basement.

37. Government approved. All very hush-hush.

38. What are they?

39. He likes his hot chocolate with marshmallows on.

40. You must mean business. Never done them before.

41. - That was, uh, Mark, I think.

42. Radiator burns all over him, poor kid.

43. I don't know what he did to get here, though.

44. He's not famous like your Jamie.

45. - Come on! - Two of us on the way now.

46. Right. You know where I am.

47. - You okay? - Yes.

48. - Hi, Jamie. - Hi.

49. - You need us, we're here. - Yes.

50. - Same goes for you, Jamie. - Yeah.

51. We'll be watching, okay?

52. Hot chocolate.

53. Spri… Sprinkles?

54. Lots of them.

55. You remembered. Thank you.

56. And I saved you half my sandwich in case you were hungry.

57. What is it?

58. Cheese and pickle.

59. No tomatoes?

60. Tomatoes don't go very well with pickle.

61. No salad?

62. Would I do that to you?

63. There's no tomatoes. No salad. There's just cheese and pickle.

64. - Do you want it? I'll save it for later. - No. I'll have it.

65. Ah, I… I don't know about pickle, though, but… I'll have it.

66. - Did you make it? - Yes.

67. - You make butties, do you? - What, you think that's weird?

68. No. My mum makes 'em.

69. Well, that makes two of us, then.

70. This is nice.

71. It's a bit hot.

72. I don't mind hot.

73. - You're looking better than last time. - What's that supposed to mean?

74. You've just got some of your color back.

75. - You sound like a granny. - Do I?

76. "Oh, you got your color back. You can't have been that ill."

77. - That's a good voice. - No.

78. Do you see your grandparents much?

79. - Well, not recently, no. - No, I meant before all this.

80. Yeah, a bit.

81. My dad's side… my dad's mum and dad. My mum didn't get on with hers.

82. Yeah, we spoke about that.

83. - So, what are your dad's parents like?

84. I don't know. Like him.

85. Well, what does that mean?

86. They like things as they like them. "No gravy. Such a shame."

87. Or, "I like a slice with my dinner if you've got one in, Amanda."

88. A slice… A slice of what?

89. Bread.

90. - You're posh, aren't ya? - No, I'm just not from where you're from.

91. Well, what do you call bread if you don't call it a slice?

92. Mm, bread?

93. You're posh.

94. If it makes you happy that I am, Jamie, then I am.

95. Well, what do you call your grandad? Bet you call him "Grandpa."

96. - I do not. - I bet you do.

97. I call him "Pop-pop."

98. What?

99. Do ya?

100. - Yes, I do. - Wow!

101. - Jesus. I've not heard that one before. - I don't know why.

102. Okay. Maybe he asked me to call him that. I'm not sure.

103. - God, you're really posh.

104. Are you not gonna try the sandwich?

105. I'll have it later. It's just… the pickle.

106. Hate it.

107. You hate it?

108. - Oh, I really messed up, then. - Yeah, you did.

109. Okay.

110. So, can we talk a bit about you?

111. You see a lot of your dad in your grandad, do you?

112. Yeah, I don't know.

113. Is it just what they say, or how they do things?

114. What's your dad and his dad like?

115. Men.

116. Okay. Well, would "masculine" be an okay word to use?

117. You used it.

118. When I hear the word "masculine," I think they can mend things.

119. They like to make things.

120. They like sports. They like going to the pub.

121. Yeah.

122. Not the pub, but, yeah.

123. Your dad doesn't go to the pub?

124. No, not… not really.

125. Not as much as my pop-pop.

126. - Not gonna let me forget that, are you? - No.

127. So, your grandad's more of a pub man, is he?

128. I dunno. He… He's not around that much anymore.

129. How much?

130. Every other Sunday, maybe.

131. Sometimes in the week when they're both…

132. Mum and Dad are both working, but that's more Granny.

133. A bit more in the holidays.

134. - We went to Tenerife with them once. - On holiday?

135. No, banana picking.

136. - Obviously it was on holiday. - Okay.

137. I don't think I've ever heard anyone use banana picking in a comeback.

138. - [laughs, sighs]

139. I suppose the other thing I think about when I hear the word "masculine"

140. would be the way that masculine men—

141. This started 'cause I said you sounded like a granny.

142. - What?

143. This all started because I said you sounded like a granny.

144. And now you're just going on about masculine stuff.

145. Yes.

146. The first time you came, you had actual questions.

147. "Is this right, Jamie? Do you know whether this is wrong, Jamie?"

148. - Now you're just chatting shit. - I hope I'm not.

149. Well, you are, because the first time you're all,

150. "If an adult guinea pig eats one of its kids, is that normal or weird?"

151. - And now you're, "What do you call bread?" - Come on.

152. - I'm interested. - It feels like a trick.

153. Trick? Trick into what?

154. My dad's okay.

155. All right?

156. Okay. I know.

157. Just talking about him.

158. There isn't a need.

159. Fine, if that's how you feel. But I'm not trying to trick you.

160. - And now I've pissed you off. - No.

161. Can I see your notes? What you've got written down about me?

162. - Do you see me writing? - You must write stuff.

163. Yes.

164. Can I see what you wrote? What you've written?

165. Of course you can't.

166. - The lawyers have said you work for us. - That's not what they say, Jamie.

167. And I know that because I asked them the last time you said that to me.

168. You talk to them?

169. I explained. I've been employed by your team, but I don't work for you.

170. - What do you tell them? - I'm writing an independent—

171. - What do they say to you? - A presentence offense report.

172. Which the judge will read to get an understanding of you

173. and your understanding of the charges. Okay?

174. All I want to do is talk to you, Jamie, and have you talk to me.

175. Yes, I've asked some straightforward questions.

176. - But I think…

177. Am I boring you?

178. - No. - Okay.

179. I think you, and everyone else for that matter,

180. are far more complex than straightforward questions allow for.

181. We had a good conversation last time. Can we try that again?

182. What did we talk about last time?

183. We spoke about your friends, your sister, your mum. We went—

184. - Can't remember saying anything about 'em. - Well, you did.

185. How you feel about them. How Lisa's doing. What you think your mum thinks of you.

186. - Now you wanna talk about my dad? - I want to talk about lots of things.

187. I could tell you questions that I wrote down to talk to you about today.

188. If that helps.

189. All right. Yeah.

190. Okay. Well, I wanted to talk about the fight you had.

191. - That was nothing. - I was interested why you got in a fight.

192. - He hit me first. - Why?

193. Because we've had beef over stuff.

194. It doesn't matter. It wasn't a proper fight.

195. - It's not that interesting? - It's not.

196. Okay, let's move on.

197. - What? I'm in charge now, am I? - Mm. Maybe.

198. I also wrote down that I wanted to talk to you about what being a man feels like.

199. You want a cock and balls, do ya?

200. I'm interested in what being a man feels like for you.

201. I dunno.

202. It's too big a question, right?

203. And the fight's too small a question.

204. Which is why it's more useful for me to see where the conversation goes

205. and steer it a bit into what you think of your dad and your grandad, for instance.

206. The type of men you think they are.

207. Rather than saying, "So, Jamie, what do you think being a man feels like?"

208. "So, Jamie, what do you think being a man feels like?"

209. It's not a trick.

210. It's just a conversation.

211. So, do you think it would be okay if we speak about your dad?

212. Can I just see your notes? What you wrote, how you wrote it?

213. Nope.

214. You're not that in charge.

215. Does your dad like his job?

216. He fixes toilets. What do you think?

217. He works hard.

218. Long hours. You get the best money from emergency plumbing out of hours.

219. Is he funny?

220. Sometimes.

221. Loving?

222. - No, that's weird. - Angry?

223. I suppose.

224. How angry does he get?

225. He's never hit me.

226. Okay, go on.

227. Go on what?

228. - Is that what this is about? - Why do you call him angry?

229. He just gets mad. We all do.

230. Okay. That's okay. He's just angry in a normal way.

231. Well, he's pulled a shed down once when he was in a proper rager, but…

232. …that's as bad as it gets.

233. Were you frightened?

234. No, I… I thought it was quite funny at the time.

235. Lisa did too. Then Mum sent us upstairs.

236. He's not like that most of the time.

237. Hardly ever.

238. What does he do when he's not working?

239. It just feels like you're testing him.

240. No, I'm just interested in your view of him.

241. He's a big presence in your life. He was your appropriate adult.

242. Yeah, 'cause… he doesn't judge.

243. He… He's a kind person.

244. That's good to know.

245. So, what does he do when he's not working?

246. He basically likes all sport.

247. My mum always said if he'd watch lawn bowls, he'd make it fun.

248. Would you watch lawn bowls with him?

249. No, it's… it's not for me.

250. Are you not into sport?

251. - No. - None of it?

252. Yeah, I'm… I'm not good at much, but… I'm really good at getting out of PE.

253. How do you do that, then?

254. Um, headaches. Hurt my leg.

255. Funny tummy.

256. "Sir, I feel dizzy. Can I sit down?" That sort of thing.

257. What did… does your dad make of that?

258. He, um… He didn't…

259. He doesn't… He doesn't know.

260. He knew I wasn't sporty or anything like that.

261. I… I used to, uh… He used to take me to football.

262. This…

263. This football thing on… on Saturdays.

264. And he'd, um…

265. He'd cheer me on and everything, but…

266. But when I… I'd fuck up, he'd just…

267. He'd… He'd just look away.

268. Pretend he didn't see?

269. Maybe, or…

270. Maybe he just didn't want me to see him looking…

271. [sighs, hesitates] …sorry.

272. Sorry?

273. I dunno.

274. Ashamed.

275. How did you feel when you saw that shame?

276. - You're supposed to say he wasn't. - Am I?

277. Yeah.

278. You're supposed to say, "Oh, bet he wasn't ashamed."

279. "Bet you just thought that, Jamie."

280. Or, "Is that what you really think? He wouldn't be ashamed, not of his kid."

281. - Have other people said that to you? - It's just the right thing to say.

282. Isn't it lying?

283. No.

284. I don't know. I don't like lying.

285. I wasn't into school sports either.

286. Yeah, well, you were good at other stuff, though, weren't ya?

287. Why do you think that?

288. You look like you were, and you're…

289. And you're clever, so…

290. Did you not think you were very good at anything else?

291. No. I… I didn't care I wasn't.

292. It must be hard to feel that way.

293. No.

294. I think most people think like that.

295. Most people think they're bad at everything?

296. Most people are.

297. Does your sister feel like that?

298. No.

299. Lisa's clever.

300. Your dad?

301. I don't know.

302. My… My mum does, though.

303. Your mum thinks she's bad at everything?

304. She can cook a roast, but…

305. I mean, you'd have to ask her.

306. Have you met them yet?

307. - Your family? - Yeah.

308. I've… spoken to your dad on the phone.

309. - Yeah? - Yes. As part of my assessment.

310. How is he?

311. He's okay. He's sad you're here. I can't say more than that.

312. Well, it… it's wrong…

313. …that I'm in here.

314. Can I ask you a question?

315. Of course you can.

316. - Can you get me out of this place? - I'm afraid I'm of no use to you there.

317. Why couldn't they put me in a proper prison?

318. - A better facility wasn't available. - Putting me in a madhouse?

319. - It's a secure training center. - Training?

320. What are they training us for?

321. The other boys just scream all the time.

322. They rock backwards and forwards, and they shout at Coronation Street.

323. All the way through Corrie.

324. One kid goes nuts every time he sees Steve McDonald. It's mad in here.

325. - This was the best place for you. - Ryan gets to stay home until his trial.

326. Ryan isn't accused of such a serious crime.

327. Accused. It's all accused.

328. If I did it, if I hurt her, then I'd get it, but I didn't, so—

329. - As far as I understand it— - Am I getting moved for the trial?

330. Nothing has been decided yet.

331. Do you know where it's gonna be? London or local?

332. You need to sit down, Jamie. If you don't sit down, I have—

333. You don't know, or you just won't tell me?

334. Nothing's been decided yet. You need to sit down!

335. I don't want to sit!

336. If you don't sit, I have to stop this discussion.

337. - Maybe I want you to! - Do you?

338. It'd piss you off. You'd have to go home and then come back again.

339. Jamie, if you do not sit—

340. I don't fucking wanna sit down!

341. You do not tell me when to sit down!

342. You do not control what I fucking…

343. Look at me now!

344. You do not control what I do in my life!

345. Get that in that fucking little head of yours!

346. Fucking hell!

347. Is everything okay?

348. - There isn't a problem. - Fuck.

349. Jamie.

350. I shouted. I'm sorry.

351. - Do you want him taken out? - No.

352. I'll get a cup of tea, though, if that's okay.

353. Can I have another hot chocolate, please?

354. - Sure. - You don't have to.

355. Sure.

356. - [somber, oppressive music rises]

357. Causing trouble, is he?

358. Uh, could I look in the room?

359. - There's no audio. - That's fine. Can I look?

360. Of course. Mi casa is your casa. Or whatever they say.

361. - After you. - Thank you.

362. What are you seeing?

363. I mean, what is it you're looking for? Is it body language stuff?

364. It's just, I'm reading a book on that at the moment.

365. My sister gave it to me.

366. You see,

367. people hide.

368. I know I don't need to tell you this, but… they hide so much.

369. Maybe they tell the truth with their bodies, you know?

370. - Faces— - Yes, maybe.

371. I couldn't do what you do.

372. I'm sure I couldn't do what you do.

373. Do you want to job swap?

374. What's your hours?

375. What's your wages?

376. - What's your holiday allowance? - No. I like my job most of the time.

377. Well… I hate mine.

378. So you're probably best off.

379. Right.

380. That's all I needed.

381. Dib dib dib.

382. - Pleased to help. - Thank you.

383. Thanks.

384. Would you be comfortable with me staying?

385. No, I wouldn't like that at all.

386. Right, Jamie. I'm not a police officer. I'm not here to elicit a confession.

387. I'm just here to understand. I know you think I'm trying to trick you.

388. I said… I said that ages ago.

389. I am just here to get an understanding of your understanding.

390. And I understand

391. that you need to have an understanding of my understanding.

392. Go on.

393. Ask your questions.

394. I'm better now.

395. Okay. Uh…

396. Well, I suppose the other thing I think of in relation to the word "masculinity"

397. would be how masculine men feel about women.

398. - We're back on that, are we? - Yes. Is that okay?

399. Uh, yeah.

400. You need to have an understanding of my understanding of women.

401. - I forgot your hot chocolate. - It's fine.

402. - I'll get it. - No, just… sit down, please.

403. It's fine. I don't deserve it.

404. I shouted.

405. Ask your questions about men, women, whatever.

406. Well, you must have views on men and women.

407. How does your dad treat your mum?

408. - Are you trying to get at my dad again? - No, not get at him.

409. Dad's actually nice to Mum.

410. You did say he tore down a shed.

411. Yeah, he just gets angry with himself, but he's never hit her.

412. Does he speak to other women?

413. - What? - Is he friendly with other women?

414. What? No. He loves my mum.

415. No, I'm asking whether any of his friends are women.

416. No, his mates are his mates.

417. And they're men?

418. Is that wrong? What does that mean?

419. No. No, that's not wrong.

420. I thought we'd done talking about my dad.

421. - Jamie, I'm just trying to understand— - Understand.

422. I know, but… none of this is nothing to do with him.

423. - Okay, that's fine.

424. - Do you have any mates who are women? - No.

425. Like your dad, your mates are male?

426. The other shrink asks more normal questions, you know?

427. - Okay. - Wanna know what he asks?

428. - I can't know. - I'm just saying.

429. I can't know, Jamie. My conclusions have to be independent.

430. All right, okay. I won't say anything.

431. What do you think about women?

432. I like them.

433. But you're not, like you say, particularly friends with them?

434. I'm not a twat, though.

435. - Are you attracted to women? - Yeah, I'm not gay.

436. We've established you don't have a girlfriend.

437. - Yeah. - But I don't think I asked before.

438. Would you like a girlfriend?

439. Yeah, who doesn't?

440. If you had a girlfriend, what would you do with her?

441. What does that mean?

442. Well, would you take her out? If you did, where would you take her?

443. The cinema.

444. To see what kind of film?

445. A horror.

446. Fifteen certificate?

447. Mm. Yeah, they're pretty slack. You can get in.

448. And after the cinema, would you

449. take her for a walk, take her straight home?

450. No.

451. Not straight home.

452. Would you want to kiss her?

453. - Are you allowed to ask these questions? - What, you don't discuss this in PSHE?

454. What do you think is the normal amount

455. someone your age would do sexually with a girl or boy?

456. - I told you, I'm not gay. - I wasn't suggesting that you were.

457. - You really want me to answer? - Yes, if you can.

458. I don't know. Touching. Kissing.

459. Well, what do you mean by touching?

460. Touching her… Touching her bits.

461. Her chest?

462. - Yeah. - Her backside?

463. - Yeah. - Her vulva?

464. Her vagina?

465. I don't know, maybe.

466. - Probably not? - Maybe.

467. Are you sure you're allowed to ask these questions?

468. So, you think it's normal for a 13-year-old heterosexual boy

469. to have engaged in touching of a girl's chest and her backside?

470. Above or below clothes?

471. Below… maybe.

472. Above, mostly.

473. I've actually done all that. Kissing and touching.

474. Okay.

475. And I've had two girls show me their tits. Chest.

476. It's okay. You don't have to use my language.

477. And I touched them, so…

478. Okay.

479. And one of them touched my, uh… my… my knob

480. through my trousers.

481. Okay.

482. And I think she liked it.

483. And you liked it?

484. Of course.

485. Not really.

486. You didn't like it?

487. I dunno.

488. There's no right or wrong answer in this room, Jamie.

489. You do know that. It's just your best attempt at the truth.

490. Yeah.

491. That… That didn't happen.

492. - You weren't touched on your trousers? - No, I wasn't.

493. And did two girls go topless with you?

494. No, but…

495. - I've seen photos, though. - You've seen porn photos?

496. No, not porn.

497. Everyone sees porn.

498. Just these two girls in my year that I knew. Well, know.

499. You saw photos of two girls in your year topless?

500. Yeah.

501. Would they be happy you saw those photos?

502. Everyone else did.

503. Was Katie one of those two girls?

504. What?

505. - How do you know that? - How did it feel—

506. - No. How did you guess that? - I didn't guess it. I asked it.

507. And now I'd like to know what it felt like to see that.

508. - You're asking whether I got a hard-on? - I'm asking how it felt.

509. I… I liked it. Are we allowed to talk like this?

510. How does it make you feel, looking at naked pictures of people?

511. How do you think?

512. How does it make you feel,

513. looking at naked pictures of people you know?

514. I dunno. Good.

515. Powerful?

516. - Do you feel like it gives you a power? - No.

517. It's just weird.

518. Were you attracted to Katie?

519. She wasn't my type.

520. So you weren't?

521. She was quite…

522. …no offense, but flat, you know?

523. Right.

524. Well, everyone else said it… who saw it. That's not just me.

525. The picture got passed around the school. Snapchat, you know.

526. It was just her…

527. …top half.

528. Not, uh, anything else.

529. She sent it to Fidget, and then he sent it on.

530. Why did she send it to Fidget?

531. I dunno. She fancied him.

532. So she was trying to attract him?

533. I think he asked her.

534. He's not gonna get any more pictures, though, is he?

535. No. She's dead.

536. No, I…

537. I didn't mean from her.

538. I meant from other girls.

539. No one'll send him pictures

540. because he wasn't careful with the one he got.

541. The twat.

542. So you think he should have collected more pictures from more girls

543. before he shared them with other boys?

544. Yeah. I dunno.

545. Why… Why did you say "She's dead" like that?

546. Because she is.

547. Jamie, I asked whether you were attracted to women.

548. Do you think women are attracted to you?

549. What sort of question's that?

550. Well, what do you think? Do you think girls are attracted to you?

551. No.

552. Of course not.

553. Why, "of course not"?

554. Because I'm… I… I'm ugly.

555. How does that make you feel?

556. - Aren't you supposed to say I'm not ugly? - What I think isn't important.

557. You don't say the things normal people say.

558. How would you feel if I did?

559. I don't know why you don't say things normal people say.

560. I should have contradicted you when you said your dad was ashamed,

561. and you think I should contradict you now when you tell me you think yourself ugly?

562. I dunno.

563. I'm interested in the fact that you think you're ugly, Jamie.

564. Yeah, I'm…

565. I'm fascinating.

566. I'm interested in it

567. because what you think is more important to me than what is true, okay?

568. So, how do you feel about being ugly?

569. Well, how would you feel?

570. You don't know.

571. - You're not. You're dead pretty. - This isn't about me, Jamie.

572. - You don't think you're pretty? - I'm not the interesting person.

573. You don't think you're pretty? You do think I'm ugly?

574. I haven't passed judgement on either of those things. For very good reason.

575. - "For very good reason." - I want to understand you.

576. To understand my understanding of my understanding of my understanding.

577. Yes.

578. - The other bloke is much more easy. - Okay.

579. Him checking whether I understand was much easier.

580. - Whether I understand what I did. - They need two opinions for a reason.

581. Look, no, fuck off! I didn't fucking say that!

582. You're fucking putting words in me mouth!

583. - It's a fucking trap in here! You are… - Hey! Jamie!

584. What was that?

585. Hey?

586. What the fuck was that?

587. Signaling him away like a fucking queen, yeah?

588. I need you to sit down.

589. Fuck.

590. Fuck.

591. Fuck.

592. Fuck's sake.

593. - Are you going to sit down? - Fuck off!

594. For fuck's sake.

595. Fuck. Fuck.

596. Are you done?

597. Fine.

598. I will fucking sit down.

599. You happy now?

600. Hey?

601. Well, are you going now?

602. Are you going?

603. Would you like me to?

604. It's not up to me, is it?

605. If you want me to go, Jamie, I can go.

606. You said in one of our previous sessions that you had friends, Tommy and Ryan.

607. But that you wouldn't consider yourself popular.

608. Yeah.

609. You said you were bullied. The three of you were bullied.

610. People like you love talking about bullying.

611. You said Tommy was called Round Pounds

612. because his mum did her shopping at Poundland.

613. Yeah, but she doesn't.

614. And Ryan was called dumb.

615. Ryan is dumb.

616. That one was sort of true.

617. - The three of you felt ostracized. - Big words coming out now.

618. You said sometimes this would get physical.

619. People would spit on you from classroom windows.

620. You'd be tripped up and pushed.

621. Yeah.

622. - You were called names, physically abused. - No. I was just tripped up and spat on.

623. My question, Jamie, is why do you have an Instagram account?

624. What?

625. - I… I need one. - Why?

626. To look at other people's accounts.

627. You can't if you haven't got one.

628. Right. And you follow lots of women on Instagram. Models.

629. Yeah.

630. You don't need to put photos up, though. Why do you?

631. Put photos up of yourself, I mean?

632. I dunno. Am I not allowed?

633. Yeah.

634. Is it to prove bullies wrong by showing the fun you have with Tommy and Ryan?

635. What? No.

636. To show the fun you have with your family?

637. No way I'm putting anything up of them.

638. If you've seen that, it's because my sister tagged me.

639. Because you think someone might like one of your photos?

640. You might get into a conversation, make a new friend, meet a girl?

641. What? No. What you on about?

642. Katie commented on your photos on a number of different occasions.

643. Uh, yeah.

644. What are you doing?

645. - What… What's this? - Budge up.

646. She wrote this.

647. No. Are… Are you allowed to ask these questions?

648. - Has Dillon passed these questions fit? - Yes.

649. He has. I'm allowed to ask about intimacies, Jamie.

650. But if this makes you uncomfortable or you have any questions,

651. there are people in this facility that can help you. Okay?

652. Katie wrote this on your Facebook feed.

653. Facebook?

654. Instagram.

655. Are you all right?

656. You look a bit red.

657. Did I scare you when I shouted?

658. - She wrote this on your Instagram. - I mean, I'm only 13.

659. I don't think I look that scary.

660. - Could you tell me what these emojis are? - How embarrassing is that?

661. Getting scared of a 13-year-old.

662. Wow.

663. What do these emojis mean, Jamie?

664. What do the kidney beans mean? They're kidney beans, right?

665. She's pretending like I'm part of one of those truth groups.

666. What truth groups?

667. The ones that say that women don't want us and don't care.

668. - Are you part of those? - No.

669. But you know what they say?

670. Yeah, 'cause everyone kept on going on about it.

671. Incel stuff. So I had a look, but I didn't like it.

672. And was you being an incel what she was saying with all of these?

673. Yeah.

674. Could you explain them all?

675. Uh… want love, won't get it.

676. My throat's killing.

677. Uh, red pill, exploding.

678. That's the same as the red pill.

679. And then that's an 80-20 thing.

680. What's an 80-20 thing?

681. Where 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men.

682. But I do think they're right about that, though.

683. And lots of people liked her comments quite a lot.

684. Yeah, they thought it was funny.

685. You must have found that quite cruel.

686. I suppose.

687. Did she do this to anyone else?

688. - No. - Well, why did she do it to you?

689. Because… Because I'm ugly.

690. - You think that's why she did it to you? - Well, I'm the ugliest, I suppose, so…

691. Did you ever call her on it?

692. - Yeah. - What did you say?

693. I don't know. "I'm not what you say I am," or…

694. And what did she say?

695. She just…

696. She just smiled and said, "Okay," and walked away.

697. And you never thought to tell anyone?

698. - It's a bit late for that now. - That just must have hurt.

699. I didn't kill her.

700. You think I did because you've seen the video. You can't trust videos anymore.

701. It's all fake news.

702. - I'm not here to judge. - I didn't kill her.

703. She was a bitch. Even you can see that.

704. I should've killed her, but I didn't. I just…

705. All… All I did…

706. All I did was…

707. Look at ya.

708. All hopeful, like I'm gonna say something important.

709. All I did…

710. I did ask her out… after the photo.

711. I went round and said I was sorry that they'd done that to her.

712. Showing everyone her tits. Her chest.

713. And I wanted to know if she'd come to the fair with me.

714. You know, I just thought she might be weak, or that…

715. I just thought she might be weak, so…

716. 'Cause everyone was calling her slag,

717. you know, or flat or whatever,

718. so I thought when she was, like, that, weak,

719. she might… she might like me.

720. It's clever, don't you think?

721. To ask her out when everyone else didn't like her?

722. Well, I went round and said I was sorry and everything.

723. That Fidget was a wanker.

724. And I said I'd take her to the fair if she liked.

725. Her weakness made her more gettable, was your theory?

726. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

727. I thought you said you didn't like her.

728. Uh, she's flat. That's a fact. But I didn't mind that. That's okay.

729. I wore my best tracksuit I could find, and…

730. I don't even know why I'm telling you all this, but I just said,

731. "You wanna come to the fair?"

732. And what did she say?

733. She just…

734. She just laughed and said, "Oh, I'm not that desperate."

735. And the emoji messages came after that?

736. Uh, yeah.

737. She was, let's say, attacking you for presuming you could ask her out?

738. - Your words. - You think they're unfair?

739. You think she's a bitch, right?

740. Doing all that.

741. You think she's a bullying bitch.

742. She was a bullying bitch, right?

743. But that's the thing, you see?

744. That night, I didn't touch her.

745. I could've touched her, but I didn't. I just…

746. I had a knife. She was scared. But I didn't do that.

747. I could have touched any part of her body. I really wanted to, but I didn't. I just…

748. Most boys would've touched her.

749. So that makes me better.

750. Don't you think?

751. I didn't… I didn't mean any of that. I'm just tired.

752. I'm talking too much. I'm tired. I'm just…

753. I'm so, so tired.

754. I didn't kill her.

755. Jamie, do you understand what death is?

756. - What? - Do you understand what death is?

757. Yeah.

758. You understand that Katie's gone and she can't come back?

759. I didn't do it.

760. That whatever claims you make as to her character—

761. - I didn't mean she was a bitch. - Whatever claims you make, she's gone.

762. That whoever did kill her,

763. they extinguished the possibility of her future life.

764. I didn't mean to be mean about her. She just did—

765. - Jamie, listen. Do you understand? - She just didn't like me.

766. Yeah, I'm not dumb.

767. - Do you understand that murder is a crime? - Yeah.

768. You understand that if you're found guilty, you'll be held in detention?

769. - Who doesn't know that? - Understand who will make the decision?

770. - Judge. Jury. - Okay.

771. Jamie, this is our last session.

772. What?

773. - What I would encourage you to— - No. Why?

774. Take advantage of any mental health services that are offered.

775. - No. Why? - I think you'll benefit.

776. - No, I won't. - Well, that's just what I think.

777. And then you come back. You see me?

778. Unfortunately, I'm needed elsewhere.

779. - It's just fucking done, is it? All of it? - I hope you take what I said seriously.

780. - Thanks for your time. I'll ask Frank— - Thanks for my time?

781. - Frank! I'm grateful that you've spoken— - You think I'm being honest?

782. - Are you gonna tell the judge? - I think you've spoken with honesty.

783. But all I'm advising the judge on is your understanding.

784. My understanding, yes.

785. - It doesn't seem like a proper goodbye. - It is.

786. - It doesn't seem like one. - That's enough.

787. No, we haven't finished.

788. - We have. Thank you, Frank. - No, no!

789. Can I ask you something?

790. Yes.

791. Do you like me?

792. - I was here as a professional, Jamie. - Don't you think like that, then?

793. - My job was to assess you. - Because I like you.

794. Not like that. Not fancying you. Just as a person.

795. - Okay, son, come on. - No, don't you even like me a bit?

796. What did you think about me, then?

797. - Decide, come on! - This was really useful.

798. Don't you go fucking telling them what I did!

799. - Don't you dare! - Whoa, come on.

800. Don't you go fucking… Get the fuck off me! Don't you dare!

801. - Hey! - Fuck!

802. - Come on. Jamie, man, please. - Don't you even like me a bit?

803. Okay? Jamie, come on.

804. - What did you think about me, then? - Okay.

805. Just tell my dad I'm all right!

806. - Tell him that I'm okay! - Jamie, you're hurting yourself.

807. - Tell him that I'm all right! - Calm down.

808. Tell him I'm all right!

809. - Tell him I'm okay, please!

810. Oh God.